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 Irwin Pedersen stock questions
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macgunner01
Advanced Member


298 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2007 :  5:13:26 PM  Show Profile Send macgunner01 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hey guys, got a few questions for the advanced collectors out there:

recently i've been looking into getting an IP carbine. i've checked out quite a few, and still have a few questions on the stock markings:

1) Harrison's book shows an IP cartouche of one style on page 13 (the same one is also on the plastic cartouche insert), where-as Reisch's 5th edition show a different cartouche on page 122. Which one would be correct? Or, are they both correct?

2) Was there every any lateral support of stocks between IP and Inland?

3) Anyone got an early IP they wanna sell?

Thanks in advance!

Edited by - macgunner01 on 12/01/2007 5:14:15 PM

BQ97
Advanced Member

477 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2007 :  08:25:28 AM  Show Profile Send BQ97 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
1) Neither

2) Inland sent 200 stocks to Irwin Pedersen

3) Good luck!

Edited by - BQ97 on 12/02/2007 08:44:59 AM
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macgunner01
Advanced Member



298 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2007 :  12:14:40 PM  Show Profile Send macgunner01 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BQ97

1) Neither

2) Inland sent 200 stocks to Irwin Pedersen

3) Good luck!



Thanks for the reply!

1) So neither cartouche is correct? There's a third option? I understand that none of the original production IP carbines were accepted by the government, I was just asking which stamp was accurate.

2) Any idea what they're marked?

3) Thanks! I'll need it

Man, I really need a copy of the War Baby series
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Inland1942
Starting Member



USA
3 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2007 :  3:23:37 PM  Show Profile Send Inland1942 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IR-IP in sling well.
Boxed S'G' and small cross cannon above it!
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Tuna
Moderator



3335 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2007 :  1:20:12 PM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The sling well of an Irwin Pedersen stock could be marked IR-IP or IP-IR. Both of these are found on original stocks. The S'G' stamp is not an Irwin Pedersen stamping. There are stocks IP marked and with the crossed cannon stamp on them also that are original IP stocks. The S'G' marked stocks are from when Saginaw Gear took over the IP contract from about May 1943. They are type 1 stocks and will be marked IR-IP or IP-IR in the sling well. Shortly after taking over the contract from IP, S'G' switched to the type 2 stock. The type two stocks will be IR marked(no IP) in the sling well.
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BQ97
Advanced Member

477 Posts

Posted - 12/19/2007 :  10:18:36 AM  Show Profile Send BQ97 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Stocks marked IR witout the IP in the sling well are replacement stocks.
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Inland1942
Starting Member



USA
3 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2007 :  09:03:25 AM  Show Profile Send Inland1942 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How is it that any stocks could be marked IP in a box if the government didn't accept any IP carbines? I only started seeing IP marked stocks shortly after a certain ebayer was selling the cartouche stamps?
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BQ97
Advanced Member

477 Posts

Posted - 12/23/2007 :  08:44:33 AM  Show Profile Send BQ97 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
After Saginaw Gear took over the government inspectors at Grand Rapids used the IP acceptance stamp until it was replaced by the S'G' stamp.
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macgunner01
Advanced Member



298 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2008 :  2:46:25 PM  Show Profile Send macgunner01 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Excellent info, guys! I really appreciate all of the comments

Someday, I'll have an IP. Someday...

Edited by - macgunner01 on 01/02/2008 2:47:00 PM
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jimb16
Moderator



USA
3168 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2008 :  9:39:58 PM  Show Profile Send jimb16 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
BTW the IR marked replacement stocks were manufactured by Robert Irwin.....

OGCA Lifer, 03 Cruffler
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macgunner01
Advanced Member



298 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2008 :  03:03:03 AM  Show Profile Send macgunner01 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great information you guys have been providing! I'm learning more every day

a quick question: Were the IR-marked stocks WWII replacement, or post-war?

quote:
Originally posted by jimb16

BTW the IR marked replacement stocks were manufactured by Robert Irwin.....

OGCA Lifer, 03 Cruffler

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jimb16
Moderator



USA
3168 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2008 :  7:33:27 PM  Show Profile Send jimb16 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
WWII.....almost all replacement stocks post WWII were M2 stocks except for a few WWII era leftovers.

OGCA Lifer, 03 Cruffler
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unclebubba
Starting Member



USA
2 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2008 :  12:56:08 PM  Show Profile Send unclebubba a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I see that if there is a IR stand along in the sling well it means that this is a replacement stock. my question is this replacement stock only for Irwin Pedersen or for any other carbine manufacture? thanks
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jimb16
Moderator



USA
3168 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2008 :  6:10:53 PM  Show Profile Send jimb16 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They went into a general replacements parts pool at the various arsenals and often were sent out to divisional and lower repair depots.

OGCA Lifer, 03 Cruffler
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macgunner01
Advanced Member



298 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2008 :  7:16:42 PM  Show Profile Send macgunner01 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Talking about IR-marked stocks, looks like someone got happy with the stamps, and turned an "IR" into an "IR-IP" with flaming bomb:

GB Auction #92282474

I could be wrong, but I've never seen an IR-IP like that before. Not to mention, the "IR" stamp stands out a LOT MORE than the "-IP" and flaming bomb do.
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no9
Starting Member



2 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2009 :  10:56:16 PM  Show Profile Send no9 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have an Irwin Pedersen M1 carbine with all IP marked parts--the trigger house, trigger, sear, safety, bolt group, rear sight, front sight, and swivel (UP marked). The barrel is marked "Underwood 42". The receiver is numbered in the first group of Irwin Pedersen serial numbers. It's all in excellent, original condition. The bore is pristine. However the rifle is housed in a Winchester stock that appears to be a reject stock. There is no Circle P stamp on the stock, and no markings in the handguard or slingwell. It is a low wood stock dating to 1943 judging by the small unboxed WRA stamp. It has an inch tall 3-digit number neatly stamped and painted yellow on the pistol grip. My thinking is that the gun was tested by the Ordnance Dept, rejected and eventually housed in a rejected stock, possibly numbered with its test number and salted away. From what I've read, the government paid Irwin Pedersen for the guns, even though it canceled the contract and rejected the guns because of metallurgy problems. Does anyone have any ideas or knowledge about this or have seen/heard of any Irwin Pedersen guns in stocks made by other manufacturers such as Winchester?
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macgunner01
Advanced Member



298 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2009 :  06:01:45 AM  Show Profile Send macgunner01 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey No9: welcome to the forum!

Congratulations on your Irwin Pedersen: they are one of the hardest "prime manufacturer" carbines to get!

According to the description that you gave, that carbine was accepted by the government and was issued. The government never accepted (nor paid) IP for any of their original carbines: they were ALL rejected. When Saginaw came in to assume the contract, the IP carbines that could be salvaged were reworked, by Saginaw, and THEN accepted by the government.

The fact that your Winchester stock has a WRA stamp and a 3-digit number stamped on the pistol grip (probably a rack number) means that the stock was probably on an original issued Winchester, and during a rebuild (or a "cleaning party") that the stock ended up on the IP. Just because there are no "Circle P" markings (and that you cannot see any other markings on handguard or slingwell) doesn't mean that it's not an issued stock. During rebuild, many stocks were sanded, and the "W" inside the slingwell can be hard (if not almost impossible) to see sometimes.

Then, unfortunately, there's always the chance that the stock was faked by Bubba.

Honestly, the "testing by Ordnance Dept" theory doesn't hold water at all: the Ordnance Department wasn't in the business of making new carbines work, they only evaluated and accepted/rejected carbines. Not to mention: if Ordnance evaluated an already accepted carbine and it was out-of-spec for one reason or another, the out-of-spec part(s) was/were changed and the carbine reissued. If the receiver was out-of-spec, it was trashed, and the remaining parts used for rebuilds of other carbines.

Also: IP's contract wasn't cancelled because of metalugry problems. The receivers were the correct forged steel composition that they should have been, and were properly heat-treated. The tolerances to which they were machined at, though (along with their other parts), were not within spec. THIS is why they were rejected. The government had a requirement that any serviceable part from any carbine should fit and function when placed into any OTHER serviceable carbine, regardless of manufacturer. IP carbines simply did not meet this very important requirement UNTIL Saginaw reworked them.

Again: congratulations on obtaining one of the harder carbines to find. Now: Want to sell it?



------------------------------------------
Carbine Club / GCA Member
"Carbine Guru in Training"
------------------------------------------


Edited by - macgunner01 on 07/24/2009 06:07:18 AM
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no9
Starting Member



2 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2009 :  1:15:19 PM  Show Profile Send no9 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for your response and the information. It clears up a lot of questions I had about this carbine. We had divided a large collection of military rifles two years ago and I've been researching many of them. It is difficult to find any information about the Irwin Pedersen carbines.

The only solid published info seems to be in a book called, "War Baby! The U.S. Caliber .30 Carbine, Vol. 1" though I'm sure there are other books available. This book mentions the Ordnance Dept. reporting metallurgy problems causing a number of IP receivers to break during "cold rain" tests. "War Baby" has a photo an IP stock which was broken during testing too. The author claims that the Ordinance Dept refused to honor the contract and recommended that all of Irwin Pedersen's managers be replaced and production problems fixed before the contract would be reconsidered.

This rifle will go to auction soon, but I have to decide a value and needed to see if it is complete enough to be billed as an Irwin Pedersen carbine. I have seen a number of Irwin Pedersen marked carbines that have mostly Saginaw parts. I was skeptical about the stock on my gun, so your explanation clears that up. It's hard to get information from the 'net because most of it isn't backed with any valid resource material. One person claims that Inland provided 200 stocks for Irwin Pedersen test guns, but that is the only place I find it mentioned, so I'm pretty skeptical about that too.

Gunbroker currently has an Irwin Pedersen gun (with saginaw parts) for auction. I may list my gun, but might wait until that auction clears.

I'll auction the carbine in its current condition since that's how it was found. I doubt I'd ever find a proper IP stock. Besides, I'd feel like I was auctioning a fakery if I added an IP stock after the fact. There were seven M1 carbines in the gun collection. One was a paratrooper model which I didn't manage to acquire. Most of the carbines were tagged at $400, including the Pedersen, so I was surprised to find it's much more valuable.

Thanks again for the information!

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sante
Starting Member



USA
7 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2011 :  3:45:54 PM  Show Profile Send sante a Private Message  Reply with Quote
guys
have IP serial 17860xx , it has the following parts, stock type c , IH contractor, no bomb, handguard,type d, IO contractor, slide type c ,S contractor, barrel, rockola, p proof, no date, bolt correct IP, Trigger group, type 2, all IP parts, Recoil plate, rockola, buttplate,IP, this weapon is in all matching park, the stock is beautiful. Is there anyway that the rockola parts could be correct? Go ahead fire away
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Tuna
Moderator



3335 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2011 :  11:23:26 AM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Rock-Ola barrel could be correct but would most likely have been a dated one and would have been used by S'G' on an IP receiver before July 1943. Your stock and hand guard are Inland so the recoil plate,stock and barrel are most likely replacements during a rebuild.
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sante
Starting Member



USA
7 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2011 :  3:08:54 PM  Show Profile Send sante a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But,wouldn't rebuild be stamped? BTW I collect military rifles, i seen rebuilds in my Garands,9, Carbines,16,( including a beautiful Inland M1a1 first run, Inland hand stamp and a last Inland) O3a3s,4, 03a4,1 , Johnson's,2, M1a,12, M1917,3. Not to mention, all other WW1 and WW2 from other contries.
This stock is probably the nicest stock I'e seen. Nice highwood. The older gentlemen i purschased it from stated he had her longer than he cared to remember.
I will like to see if Larry Ruth is at the next show, show him this IP, he say my M1a1, really like it.
sante
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autryn2
Starting Member



1 Posts

Posted - 04/28/2015 :  10:28:29 AM  Show Profile Send autryn2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have a Blue Sky M1 with the following markings on it and was wondering what it means:

Stamped "P" on end of pistol grip.
Red painted "36" on pistol grip butt.
White spray painted "71" above Sling well.
Stamped "AAM" on left side just behind and below the peep sight.

I would add pix if I knew how...
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1070 Posts

Posted - 04/28/2015 :  11:34:03 AM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Welcome to the forum from New Mexico!

Blue Sky was a commercial importer of firearms that have been loaned or sold by the U.S. to foreign nations, in this case probably South Korea.

The "P" is a proof stamp used by USGI arsenals to indicate that the carbine had been accepted for reissue after an arsenal rebuild.

The "36" and "71" are probably armory rack numbers.

The "AAM" is the rebuild code for Augusta Arsenal, Georgia by inspector "M".

Here's a link that may help you with posting pictures directly to the forum. You must be logged in to see this link.

Do not post more than three at a time or your account may be locked. Otherwise, post your pictures on an image hosting web site like Photobucket and post the link here.

JackP

Edited by - Jackp on 04/28/2015 11:36:11 AM
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cali201
Senior Member



USA
714 Posts

Posted - 04/28/2015 :  1:57:36 PM  Show Profile Send cali201 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
With BLUE SKY as just being the importer look under the rear sight for the maker of your carbine. If you cannot see it (look hard with flashlight) give us the serial number and we can tell by that. Being you posted this in the IP section any chance your carbine is an Irwin Pedersen????

Here is a little info on the imports.

You must be logged in to see this link.
You must be logged in to see this link.

Edited by - cali201 on 04/28/2015 1:59:06 PM
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