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 An Interesting M-1
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TheSmokingGnu
Starting Member


USA
13 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2014 :  4:38:43 PM  Show Profile Send TheSmokingGnu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have what I believe to be an interesting M-1 and I'm in hopes that somebody here can tell me if I really have something unique.

When the Allies invaded Sicily and then Italy in 1943, one of the logistical tail units was an Ordnance Group commanded by a Colonel (now deceased) who was an acquaintance of mine. As in all units, he was issued a firearm - an IBM manufactured M-1, new out of case, covered in cosmoline (I assume). His orderly probably cleaned it and then it stayed with him as the unit moved slowly north. When the war ended, the Colonel put the carbine in his duffle bag and took it home with him (Colonels could do that back then I guess).

His subsequent career included command of the US Army Tank Automotive Command group in Michigan and after retiring, working with Paccar in Seattle. All that time, the M-1 stood in his closet in its little canvas scabbard with one magazine in it. Although I knew him, I was not aware of the carbine.

Upon his death a few years ago, the carbine moved from his closet to the closet of his son, also a career Army officer and my closest friend for over forty years (we served together for a long time, not in the Ordnance Corps).

In 2009, my good friend, gave me the Carbine (he is not a firearms enthusiast, although a reasonably good shot). Along with a copy of his Dad's service record.

So now I have it in my safe. I think it unique because I know and can, to a limited degree, document what art critics and buyers refer to as its "Provenance," its history from initial issue to today. It never went back to Rock Island to be parted out, reassembled, or just scrapped, or sold. Obviously, all the parts match within the structure of IBM's quality control of the 1940s.

I know that somebody will tell me not to shoot it, but Colonel Bill did and I have too, although I did put the original magazine in my safe and bought a couple in the aftermarket.

I guess my question is: Do I have something as neat as I think it is, or am I just foolin' myself?

The Smoking Gnu

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The ugliest is that man who thinks nothing is worth fighting or dying for and lets men better than himself protect him.
John Stuart Mill - On Liberty, 1859

swampmolly
Senior Member



USA
764 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2014 :  5:00:05 PM  Show Profile Send swampmolly a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sounds real good to me, but the proof is in the pictures and the part markings.
SM
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1070 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2014 :  5:08:18 PM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know my dad carried a carbine on Okinawa in June of '45, but he didn't bring it back (he was only a corporal with a radio). My father-in-law carried a carbine in Korea. He hated it because it fell apart one day. He kept the barrel band screw loose so he could strip it more easily. Screw drivers were hard to find. Didn't know you could loosen it with the rim of a carbine case. The first into Korea weren't very well trained, I guess. He didn't bring it back either. These stories didn't result in tangible evidence of their authenticity but they are neat anyway. You have a story that is neat along with an artifact to back it up. That's neat too. I guess I got my carbines so I could get an idea of how my dad felt as he was focused on operating a radio, more afraid of snakes than japs, or so I could better understand what my father-in-law "hated" about the carbine when it failed him and he dumped it for a Garand. We collect the carbine for its history. The story behind your carbine is priceless, no foolin'

JackP
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Tuna
Moderator



3335 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2014 :  6:24:11 PM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Can you tell us the date on the barrel? If the IBM is as made then the value money wise is quite high and the better the condition the higher the value of it. This is what most collectors look for, a bring back. Values can range for an original from $1000 to $3000 depending on condition.
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TheSmokingGnu
Starting Member



USA
13 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2014 :  12:04:45 PM  Show Profile Send TheSmokingGnu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay. I partially disassembled it last night. There is no date on the barrel, right behind the front sight is a stamp that says "IBM Corp." The same stamp is on the receiver with the SN 8932753. The only other thing marked is the sling which says NS under the snap at the front sling swivel. Some time ago I found a website with the listing of SNs connected to the year of manufacture, now I can't find that again. Can somebody guide me back to that?

The Smoking Gnu

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The ugliest is that man who thinks nothing is worth fighting or dying for and lets men better than himself protect him.
John Stuart Mill - On Liberty, 1859
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TheSmokingGnu
Starting Member



USA
13 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2014 :  12:06:35 PM  Show Profile Send TheSmokingGnu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I forgot, I'll try to get some decent pictures of it this weekend and post them.

Ten cuidado, socios.

The Smoking Gnu

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The ugliest is that man who thinks nothing is worth fighting or dying for and lets men better than himself protect him.
John Stuart Mill - On Liberty, 1859
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TheSmokingGnu
Starting Member



USA
13 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2014 :  12:10:46 PM  Show Profile Send TheSmokingGnu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can't read my own writing - the SN is 3932753.

The Smoking Gnu

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The ugliest is that man who thinks nothing is worth fighting or dying for and lets men better than himself protect him.
John Stuart Mill - On Liberty, 1859
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Tuna
Moderator



3335 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2014 :  2:23:13 PM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Your carbine was made about March 1944. A non dated barrel is correct. I cannot find any information on IBM using any barrel bands or swivels marked NS. Type 1A IBM barrel bands are unmarked or marked KV-B. Does it have an adjustable rear sight or is it just a flip sight?
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TheSmokingGnu
Starting Member



USA
13 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2014 :  3:37:39 PM  Show Profile Send TheSmokingGnu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The NS is on the sling itself. The barrel band has a single "/" on the left side, consistent with a table I found somewhere for the SN range of this weapon. As an aside, the little canvas scabbard it lives in is marked "1943 Tweedies" on the inside near the lower end. It has an adjustable sight. It has no bayonet lug. As I said initially, I really do know where this little guy has been for the past 69 years, my close friend, the son of the original possessor, remembers it in the closet from his childhood (he was born in 1939).

The Smoking Gnu

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The ugliest is that man who thinks nothing is worth fighting or dying for and lets men better than himself protect him.
John Stuart Mill - On Liberty, 1859
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TheSmokingGnu
Starting Member



USA
13 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2014 :  3:43:42 PM  Show Profile Send TheSmokingGnu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I forgot, it has an Ordnance Corps crest (the circle with the flame at the top and two crossed cannons) stamped into the stock just butt-wards of the pistol grip.

The Smoking Gnu

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The ugliest is that man who thinks nothing is worth fighting or dying for and lets men better than himself protect him.
John Stuart Mill - On Liberty, 1859
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Tuna
Moderator



3335 Posts

Posted - 11/02/2014 :  12:53:40 PM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Look in the sling well for any letters there. A type 2 barrel band like you describe is correct for your carbine. A type 2 or type 3 rear sight being adjustable could very well be correct too as your close to the change over point in production. Sounds like a nice original carbine so far. Pictures would be a good help.
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TheSmokingGnu
Starting Member



USA
13 Posts

Posted - 11/02/2014 :  1:40:33 PM  Show Profile Send TheSmokingGnu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Will do. Try to get pictures too. Thanks for your help. I'm 1911 guy, with no experience in the World of the M-1.

The Smoking Gnu

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The ugliest is that man who thinks nothing is worth fighting or dying for and lets men better than himself protect him.
John Stuart Mill - On Liberty, 1859
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TheSmokingGnu
Starting Member



USA
13 Posts

Posted - 11/02/2014 :  2:20:32 PM  Show Profile Send TheSmokingGnu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Had a minute to go look. In the sling well, the stock is stamped LW-B and the upper handguard has the same stamped (much smaller) inside it. I have to say, the barrel band must have been removed at least four times in the last 69 years - man, is it tough to get off with just your hands and I don't want to use anything to pry on it. With the stock off, the trigger housing is stamped B-EB. On close examination, the rear sight is stamped "I.R.CO." and below that "7160060".

The Smoking Gnu

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The ugliest is that man who thinks nothing is worth fighting or dying for and lets men better than himself protect him.
John Stuart Mill - On Liberty, 1859
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TheSmokingGnu
Starting Member



USA
13 Posts

Posted - 11/02/2014 :  10:19:41 PM  Show Profile Send TheSmokingGnu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I tried the pictures with my phone. Junk, no detail. I put the battery for my 8MP camera on its charger and will try again tomorrow or Tuesday.

The Smoking Gnu

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The ugliest is that man who thinks nothing is worth fighting or dying for and lets men better than himself protect him.
John Stuart Mill - On Liberty, 1859
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Tuna
Moderator



3335 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2014 :  1:50:00 PM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well your stock and hand guard are correct for your carbine so it's sounding more and more like a vet bring back.
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TheSmokingGnu
Starting Member



USA
13 Posts

Posted - 11/04/2014 :  10:56:20 AM  Show Profile Send TheSmokingGnu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess I need to re-direct this thread a little. I know for certain that this one is a "bring back" and unmodified / unrebuilt. I knew the gentleman, I have his service number, date of rank, all of his assignments from his commissioning at West Point in 1932 to his retirement in Warren, Michigan in 1959, etc. With a little effort, I can come up with a list of every residential address from 1945 on where this weapon was standing in a closet. It was one of two weapons in the house (the other was a prewar 1911, now in a private collection) - the Colonel was an automotive / mechanical engineer in the Ordnance Corps, not a weapons guy. His son (my closest friend) can attest to the above (he was also a career Army officer, now retired as a colonel too - he and I are 75).

What I was originally curious about was whether or not the fact that I can document very nearly exactly where this little guy has been for the last 69 years makes it more interesting than say, an M-1 with all matching parts, but no history?

I am still going to take some pictures and I will post them. I have no intention of selling the weapon, one of my sons is a collector and he will get it after the funeral.

The Smoking Gnu

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The ugliest is that man who thinks nothing is worth fighting or dying for and lets men better than himself protect him.
John Stuart Mill - On Liberty, 1859
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