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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
329 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2018 :  06:59:56 AM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just ran across another thread in another forum concerning a shooter blowing his Rock Ola apart. Things like this always return me to my personal experiences with hand-loads or +P ammo. I am the family, friend and neighborhood gunsmith...not by trade-or-training, I just inherited the job. Over the last year, I have been presented with a Kahr 9MM pistol with a broken extractor and grips blown-off. Shooter admitted he was shooting a buddies reloads. My friend brought me a S&W 642 with a blossomed-barrel blown apart while shooting Remington +P ammo fresh from the box. Now, this guy that blew-up his Rock Ola has admitted he was shooting his buddies hand-loads.

Err on the low side when you reload....always. Start short and work-up, just like the manual says. All I want my semi-auto's to do is feed, fire, cycle and provide reasonable accuracy. I don't even shoot out-of-the-box commercial ammo until I have measured it to make sure the stuff looks right and I steer-clear of stuff like Buffalo Bore. Measure-twice-and-cut-once was never more important, especially in reloading.

Edited by - americanboy on 01/12/2018 07:00:44 AM
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
151 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2018 :  8:06:20 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Point well taken, and was on the same page. Thanks americanboy. Start small, stay small till you read and observe primers, casing's, patterns, etc. and ask more questions if needed. Feed, fire, and cycle is my goal first. I have a long learning curve in front of me. Accuracy will be my last concern.
I'm excited to make my first 10 rounds and test them. But smartly waiting for my backup digital scale to check and double check everything. Might be overkill. Ha - bad pun! I just will feel better if nothing else.
When I first got interested in guns and ammo. The first remembered caution was too never purchase reloads.
I took it to heart and never looked back or gave second thought.
On the double side of that. I will never reload for a dear friend. Oversee as he does his own, yes!
That day is still a spell away. One virgin should never teach another in my book.
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
151 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2018 :  7:58:38 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Been shooting some of my first reloads. Compared to PPU my MOA is way off. I have read where bullet seating is critical in this? Forgot to mention. PPU was tight in pattern. This was done at 50yrds.
I'm using IMR 4227 at 12.4 but still was not happy with bolt close. It's there, but only with help from the spring.
I stripped the bolt and did some testing without the spring. PPU round is sweet and easy. Not so with my reloads at OAL of 1.640
I then went to seating deeper. Finally at 1.610 I found the sweet spot. The nose on the bullet ogiv is much bigger obviously than FMJ PPU.
Now here is my questions.. I searched back to 2014 on this site, also read other stuff concerning the JUMP.
.005 to .020? Nothing on this site, but Lyman had mention, maybe not a concern with carbines?
I also could not find a minimum OAL concerning feed. Only the warning of compressed loads. Max OAL was for mags
My next will be 4227 at 12.1 I did the math with case length, bullet length, OAL, and tapped the casing of powder, measured the depth. Spot on level. Before I seat them, I hoped to hear some input.
I'm not after competition shooting at all, but was frustrated when PPU shelf won hands down with my first reloads. I like this, and not a quitter at all. Might have been smarter to start with FMJ instead of something exotic as americanboy said. But I purchased 500 and I'm going to learn with it. Ha - just makes me think harder and pester you more.
Concerns: Mostly the charge with seating depth. It is not a compressed charge, level with seating depth. I worry more about it being to weak. Look for cycle problems, case scooting?
Also, when will a shorter OAL be a concern if any? Minus the overcharge factor. Shorter OAL means slop in the magazine. But before I shoot, I always seat them to the back side of the mag with a helpful thump. They so far cycle well, but have yet to be tested at 1.610 OAL
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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
329 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2018 :  07:02:47 AM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It would seem to me that 12.4 grains 4227 is a little light. I realize you are loading a little heavier slug, but I don't think 5-grains in bullet weight would make that much difference. Hodgdon list starting loads for the 110-grain at 13.0-grains and max. loads at 14.5-grains, this being a compressed load. Both these loads call for a 1.680 OAL. The shape of the projectile you're using may dictate a different OAL and setting the bullet deeper will affect pressure and thus MV. Chronographs are not that expensive and it's a sure way of knowing when you're getting into trouble. When you start pushing MV above 1900 with a 110-grain projectile, it's time to be careful.

I do not get off the reservation with the 30-caliber and do not load anything heavier than 110-grain or lighter projectiles. I do load all sorts of stuff in 38, 45 and 9MM and the POI on a target will vary wildly among bullet weights, shapes and charges. Your gun simply may not like the projectile you're shooting.
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
151 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2018 :  2:16:51 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks amercianboy for the input. That's why I'm throwing this out there because it's kinda a funny field and so many opinions from all sources. The 12.4 was my first try at OAL 1.640 But since I'm seating the bullet an extra .030 deeper to 1.610 I backed the load off to 12.1. Have yet to try this batch of 10 rounds. Those darn coated Bayou bullets have such a rounded nose the ogive is causing problems where the bullet tip comes to the rifling lands. Once I stripped the bolt down, it was easy to feel the difference as I kept seating the bullet a little deeper step by step till I arrived at 1.610. Nice smooth bolt closure and the bullet drops right out. Before you would have to get pocket screwdriver to help remove it. Fingernail would work, but it was difficult.
To me, it was shoving the bullet into the lands because of the not so desired ogive?
Now the 50th Lyman specs for IMR-4227 with 115 gr Alloy is starting load of 11.5 with a 13.3 max which is a compressed load. This is using a suggested OAL of 1.635
So that's what I'm setting my base on. I'm over the starting load, and with a 12.1 charge, the bullet is seating right on top of the powder.
You mentioned Hodgdon. Now were you referring to the 4227? I hear they make it also, but from what I'm getting, it and MRI 4227 are different. The cast alloy bullet they are showing has a more forgiving ogive than mine do.
So hence my problem, if it is one at all? Having to seat it .025 deeper than their specs for that load and bullet. Since I am over the starting load of 11.5, I just grabbed at the blue sky with the 12.1 with this seating depth. Hence again for the questions. Just trying to figure out if I'm on the right track and thinking proper.
I agree totally that I need to get a chronograph. Soon.... any suggestion's on a good one overall for price and quality?
Honestly. I wish I would of just went with a simple 110 gr MJ round with H110 for starters. Life would of been easier, but heck, I do like a challenge, heha.
The thing that gets me the most is a heavier bullet takes a lesser charge. Seems like it should be just the opposite. Haha... just seems that way is all. Not gonna challenge it at all.
Thanks again to everyone. Be happy to hear more input.
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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
329 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2018 :  2:58:46 PM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If the bullet is/was coming into contact with the rifling and would not seat itself when the bolt banged the base...that would be a recipe for disaster if the bolt could not fully rotate and lock (out-of-battery condition). You're likely not crimping hard enough for the bullet not to seat itself. It's wise to determine just where the depth should be set to prevent this from happening. Heavier slugs require a lighter charge, because pressures build-up before the slug starts moving. The lighter charge will develop more pressure under a heavier slug. It's always the case....as projectile weights go up, powder charges come down. As well as seating depths. One could use a smaller charge with a deep-seated projectile. That's why load-tables always specify an OAL to be used with that certain projectile weight and charge.

If you Google-up Hodgdon Powder, you can go to their web-page that lists load data. Choose "rifle", then "30 Carbine". It will give you the option to choose a bullet weight and a specific powder and 4227 is listed. Hodgdon dose not list anything heavier than a 110-grain, nor do other sites I have visited. There is likely nothing at all wrong shooting a 115-grain slug using 110-grain load data. It's just the profile of your projectile that's causing your issues.

A decent chronograph can be had in the $50-$75 range from places like eBay. They are almost disposable and I have a neighbor that has shot at least two that I know of....seriously.
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HB of CJ
Junior Member



USA
68 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2018 :  3:25:07 PM  Show Profile Send HB of CJ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fun quick and easy to slug your USGI M1 Carbine bore. Just grab and take apart a 00 buckshot shell and tap to start and then drive through the bore with a tight cleaning rod one of the buckshot.

Then mike the precise diameter of the rifling and bore. We used wheel weights back in 1965. Sized the cast bullets to .309 and .310 diameter. Your bore condition might dictate actual bullet size.

Just another cool aspect of hand loading. You can have fun experimenting with different components. We used H110. The Carbine round does has its specific peculiarities. Case length is one.

All fun and easy to do. Also since the platform is so old, consider spending some more money and start acquiring Carbine specific gages and tools. We started out with a set of head space gages.

Nowadays it is so easy to also cast your chamber and bore if you wish. After time you will have most of the needful things to check out a prospective new Carbine purchase. All fun. All easy to do.
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
151 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2018 :  6:06:31 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
[quote]Originally posted by americanboy

If the bullet is/was coming into contact with the rifling and would not seat itself when the bolt banged the base...that would be a recipe for disaster if the bolt could not fully rotate and lock (out-of-battery condition). You're likely not crimping hard enough for the bullet not to seat itself. It's wise to determine just where the depth should be set to prevent this from happening.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining things right. Somewhere about middle of all this when I started loading dummy rounds at 1.680 I had mentioned that at 3/4 slide with spring, the bolt would not close fully. Full manual rack it would close most of the time. You said that was not a good test, and not trying to quote you on that. That with consideration of extractor and ejector I could understand. In real life action, things are different. Once again, probably not your exact quote.
I did drop the OAL to the 1.640 and saw some improvement, then made up my first live 10 rounds. Checked after each fire, and the bolt locked every time but once. Very close, but not fully. Little bump needed.
So then I started once again with a dummy round with the bolt stripped of components. It was easy to see that bolt would not close with the OAL and this Bayou bullet. Yet a shelf PPU was sweet as pie.
So I then started seating the dummy round deeper a little at a time till I hit the sweet spot. Which was 1.610
Now that told me, as you said above. I need too and have determined where my depth needs to be per adjustment. 1.610 OAL
It's the nature of the beast with this bullet. The ogive is just big enough to create aggravation is what I'm getting. So, yes, adjustments needed, and taken care of. I blacked out the bullets, PPU and my dummy reload with a marker. PPU was clean, yet my reload showed contact.
Which to me meant it was making contact with the lands. Only two little marks, but they were there. After the final adjustment of 1.610 OAL they were gone. So I do feel I'm on the right track, and was more or less throwing out my theory and results to share. I keep reading about the needed jump from bullet to the lands. Nobody ever mentions that so far. Which is of course the difference of having contact as I was getting. It's corrected and all is good.. ha I think.
My main ask was grabbing at the blue sky for a starting load since I have to seat the bullet deeper. Hard to answer, and probably should of not tossed it in the mix. Start small, then move up.
Back to the above starting quote: Probably not crimping hard enough for the bullet to not seat itself? Sorry, so still learning, but I don't understand. I feel the crimp is sufficient. I put very little bell on the case, and all seems great with the crimp. No bell afterwards even with the deeper seating. I could do more, but most say no crimp is needed on the carbine round, and since I'm going deeper on the seating, I would think that's holding tight enough. Just asking and learning. I did a full bell insert on a case to see if that was holding me back. It still fit nicely in the chamber.

Thanks HB.. always wondered how you slug a barrel. Good to know.
The Bayou pills are reading out at .309
It's the ogive that seems to be,.. or was, the fight. My MOA was way off with the first set compared to shelf PPU.
Near as I can figure so far is just the fine line of mate to match. Good enough for the action with spring, but not so with the stripped bolt. It needed that little push of spring power to finish the deal.
The perfect storm? Still learning, but do think that some jump is needed. Zero tolerance is not a good thing even if it worked?
Black marking the bullet told the story to me anyway? If that was a bad test. Then everyone feel free to share. It marked, so I assume it was kissing the beginning of the lands?
Thanks again...

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jimb16
Moderator



USA
3105 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2018 :  8:06:30 PM  Show Profile Send jimb16 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Do yourself a big favor. Mic the diameter of the case mouth on the PPU and your reloads. It sounds to me like the taper crimp isn't tight enough and the case is stopping due to tight chamber fit. I doubt that the problem is the bullet ogive. I've loaded lots of different bullets in carbines and never had a problem. The throats on carbine barrels are usually fairly generous. If your seating die isn't screwed down to touch the shell holder, you need to back off the seating stem and tighten down the seating die then readjust the seating stem to proper COAL.

OGCA Lifer,NRA Life member, son of a 325th GIR Glider Rider
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
151 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2018 :  9:06:19 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
.332 at the mouth for PPU .333 for my reloads. Checked with digital and dial calipers. half a thousands diff overall. Should be good with what I'm reading. .336 in the Lyman book I have.
I would like to think I'm wrong on this, but the black marker on the exposed bullet sold me in the direction I'm going. Just like using machinist bluing back in my good days of setting up rear ends etc.
Maybe I got a funky batch of bullets. Luck of the draw.
The seating die has been checked and triple checked. Even tweaked for experimental purpose.
I would be happy to mail a few if you would like. I still have 430 plus left.
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
151 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2018 :  10:32:39 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also forgot to mention in the above last post. I understand now the thought of not having enough crimp. The measurements should clear that up I hope. Back to my process of arriving at where I'm at.
The only clear fix came with seating the bullet deeper a little at a time till it went away. Nice smooth bolt closure first, then with just a couple thousands more. The cartridge would not stick. Just open the bolt, and out she would come when you tilt the barrel up. Just like the PPU would do. I don't really see any other answers? If it were any sort of problem with crimp or case size, the problem would still be there regardless of how deep the the bullet was seated. I hope that helps a little more with discovery. Thanks again too all.
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
151 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2018 :  12:09:54 AM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now I'm being a pest. Sorry -- just can't sleep tonight. I Googled some reviews on Bayou 115 gr for the 30 carbine. All were good, but a few touched on where I am at. Just not quite the info I wanted, but close.
This is copy / paste.


these worked great for me with zero leading/buildup. My carbine does 3" @ 100y with these (way better than Aguila junk) loaded at 1.630 COL w/ 12.0gr IMR 4227 sm rifle primer. avg vel 1530fps chrono at 10 - 12ft 20 rounds tested. Will definitely buy again and could probably push them faster
Mike on 9th Apr 2016
This guy is using IMR 4227 at 12.0 gr with seating at 1.630 I'm at, but not tested yet. 12.1 at 1.610

Now this guy below is using a different powder but does state they need to be seated deeper is all. No info.

The only reason I rated these 115th bullets 4 Star instead of 5 is purely because they are not the 110gn FMJ I've been shooting since I got the Inland and Rockola M1 Carbines back in 1973 so it's just an emotional response. I gotta admit the functioned very well with both 296 and 2400. They did need to be seated a bit deeper but as said performed on par with The FMJs I've been using.

Why I have to go deeper than 1.630 OAL? I have no clue. That number would probably work just fine in real life action. My tests were done without spring help, and a naked bolt. Point being: it does seem to be fact that they require deeper seating.

Enough said for one night. Gonna try the sleep thing again.

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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
329 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2018 :  07:08:13 AM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In explanation of my comment above pertaining the the self-seating of the bullet. I was trying to say that if the bullet is coming into contact with the lands and is crimped so tightly that it can't move back into the case and "seat itself"...that would be a recipe for disaster. If the force of the bolt closing on the base of the cartridge cannot drive a bullet that is too long deeper into the case so the case-mouth can stop on the chamber ledge, you will have created long head-space. I was indicating it was a good thing that it was not crimped so tightly that the bullet could not retreat into the case. I think since you have determined that 1.610 is the proper OAL with that projectile to prevent the bullet from contacting the lands...that's where you need to set your OAL. I believe you understand that since the bullet is set deeper, you need to start with a lighter charge and work-up and 12.1 seems like a good place to start.

Some guns do in fact head-space off the nose of the bullet, but the 30-caliber carbine is not one. You are thinking about a term called "free-bore" when you mention the space between the bullet nose and the rifling. Some rifles are designed with a chamber that is free-bored, there is some built in space between the nose of the bullet and the rifling, but that's a whole 'nuther story. The carbine chamber is not free-bored on purpose. I routinely load and shoot 86-grain projectiles, which by default don't reach the rifling and they are just as accurate as the 110-grain loads.

I don't think you need to be worried about the space between the nose of the bullet and the rifling...just as long as the bullet is seated deeply enough to allow the gun to go into battery. Long range target shooters looking for accuracy worry about this. The carbine is not a long range target gun.

Edited by - americanboy on 01/28/2018 07:17:47 AM
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
151 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2018 :  09:57:53 AM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you, I understand now what you were talking about. I think it was indeed forcing the bullet deeper, and yes, an overly tight crimp could of been bad. It's all starting to make more sense now.
As always, much appreciated.
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HB of CJ
Junior Member



USA
68 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2018 :  10:28:57 AM  Show Profile Send HB of CJ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If memory serves the carbine brass does have a very slight taper. The cartridge head spaces on the case rim. This is important. We did not use a taper crimp at all.

Cast 115 gr. Lyman sized to .310 on my old spring tube Rock Ola. SOME of our Lake City brass did require a little interior case neck reaming. Not all of them.

15.0 grains of H110. That I definitely remember. Each charge was hand weighed. Muzzle velocity unknown. We hand check or trimmed each case to 1.285. All the brass stretched.

This was done manually using an old single stage C&H press. Our production rate was very slow. A free source of Lake City ball ammo changed everything. This was in 1965.

The .30 Carbine cartridge hand loaded for the Carbine does have some quirks. One can not use a light load. The Carbine must cycle vigorously. Also low pressure can cause ...

... a situation where the straight wall case does not have enough time or pressure to expand sealing off the chamber. Examine light loaded brass for gas migration aft.

The gun was designed around H110 powder. Other powders seem to work but be careful using reduced velocity loads. The Carbine MAY seem to cycle but full power loads are safer.

Respectively.
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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
329 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2018 :  4:06:50 PM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Satanta....I believe there was a question concerning minimum OAL. SAAMI list the MINIMUM for the 30-carbine round as 1.625. I load my 86-grain projectiles down to 1.625. I would not let this ruffle your feathers and cause you any additional anguish....I'm just saying there is a published minimum OAL.
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
151 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2018 :  5:50:24 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks americanboy for that info. Good and interesting to know. I honestly don't want to be at 1.610 OAL. It limit's my play later on with powder numbers.
Doing another homemade test as I am waiting for my drill battery to charge.
Slept on it, and want to try one last thing. I always prefer to check one way, then come in the back door and check another. Back off and re-think.
I came up with this bright idea. Taking a sized and cut to length case. Drilled out the fire hole to accept a punch. Then seated a bullet at 1.595 just to make room. I then punched the bullet out and am lightly sanding it in the drill. Just to make it slide easily in the already expanded case.
Once my battery is up again, I can finish.
What I'm after is one more test of actual OAL length need. I will seat the bullet using the naked bolt and see what reading I get.
Just my backdoor, backyard, way of thinking. But I see no reason why this final check will not work.
Will let you know.

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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
151 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2018 :  7:10:57 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Happy to say it worked out in my favor. Checked it several times. I made the bullet a little looser than I wanted, but I would just pull it back out and re-test again and again. Final try before before The manual pressure of the caliper check, I put a crimp on it. Same #'s which is 1.635 OAL.
Sorry for all the fuss I caused. You are all such a tremendous help overall. Little here, a little there, and it all adds up to something I can wrap my head around for a solution.
I do feel comfort in this last test. It is the true blue or close too? If I'm missing something, then please feel free to say so.
Every carbine is different I agree. But I feel good now with the final readings. I have 3 carbines, they all have good and equal head space. Per my backyard test. I'm spot on with the Lee chart that I have. Which gives me a better idea of powder loads at 1.635 No more guessing is always good with more room to grow.
I hated the thought of being at 1.610 My bad for getting there, seemed like I was spot on, but I feel better with this last test. Check and re-check. Amen.

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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
151 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2018 :  7:57:03 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just an up-date, then I will give you all a needed rest. I went to the range to try those ten 1.610 OAL reloads with the 12.1gn I had made them up already before americanboy located the SAAMI min OAL at 1.625
They shot nicely. Good feed, good cycle, and the MOA tightened up nicely compared to the ones I made at 1.640 OAL
I also shot PPU for comparison. Little better but not much on MOA. Was not concerned with that right now.
More so with soot, case and primer checks. All looked good.
I think I've found a workable zone now as a foundation.
My last test showed 1.635 OAL so I'm going to use that and minus it to 1.630 OAL and make up 20. See how it goes.
You all have been great. Thanks.
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jimb16
Moderator



USA
3105 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2018 :  2:51:29 PM  Show Profile Send jimb16 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The OAL is predicated on mag length. The Min. oal is based on the bullet length of the standard 110 gr. bullet. Depending on the bullet weight and nose design, the min length can be greater or shorter. The shape of the bullet nose (ogive) also controls the free bore distance and so the seating depth. Seating depth controls the internal pressure of any particular powder and charge weight. Nose shape also controls feeding reliability. There are too many factors to say that any particular length is an absolute minimum. Experience is the best teacher in this regard.

OGCA Lifer,NRA Life member, son of a 325th GIR Glider Rider
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