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myname
Advanced Member


USA
214 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2017 :  9:40:40 PM  Show Profile Send myname a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sellier and Bellot, Prvi Partizan, Armscor.. Any comments as to quality etc? I got out of reloading .30 Carbine and am back to buying ammo.

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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
329 Posts

Posted - 12/06/2017 :  06:12:58 AM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Honestly, I've never had any that failed to function or were out-of-spec. Armscor and PPU have been reliable for me. I did see a recent thread on another forum concerning a bad lot of Winchester (excessive crimp), so anything is possible.
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bonnie
Advanced Member



USA
169 Posts

Posted - 12/06/2017 :  08:17:42 AM  Show Profile Send bonnie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I use PPU, PMC, Armscor, and S&B. All are good choices for me and work well in my carbines. Armscor is made in the Philippines. ArmscorUSA is made in the USA.
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HB of CJ
Junior Member



USA
68 Posts

Posted - 12/06/2017 :  8:19:19 PM  Show Profile Send HB of CJ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We did have just one, (1) over length case with Sellier and Bellot. About 1.305 inches. Strange occurrence. Somewhere I have that saved fired brass.

The overall length stopped the Inland Carbine. The bolt did not quite lock up. The hammer did not drop. No problems with SB since. SG Ammo had it on sale.

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Tuna
Moderator



3240 Posts

Posted - 12/06/2017 :  8:33:39 PM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You can add Magtech to the group of imported 30 carbine ammo. But right now I think it's PPU that is a bit cheaper then the others. Good all around ammo.
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
151 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2017 :  4:07:59 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I myself have used Armscor, S&B, and PPU. Armscor is my least favorite. The loads just seemed weaker.
S&B worked well, but price was a little higher and I had one round where the primer was installed backwards.
Not sure how, and not knowing myself, I showed it to a re-loader. He confirmed the primer is in backwards.
As americanboy says, anything can happen.
PPU has been flawless, and both my M1's love it. As Tuna said. The price is good, and for now! Good all around ammo.
I have doubled up on inspection before firing now. Always the quick look now for primer and seating.
S&B box theirs laying down. You can't just slide it out for a quick inspection. That is a must for me now.
On my end. It's PPU all the way for my carbines. I still use S&B in my 9mm Beretta sub compact pistol all the time.
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Tuna
Moderator



3240 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2017 :  9:28:43 PM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Any company can made mistake rounds like and upside down primer. The one US company I have seen the most different mistakes has to be Winchester. Upside down primers .38 spl. One round of 9mm ball that was about 23 mm long. At least 10 rounds per 50 round box 1000 round case of .357 Magnum loaded with the bullets upside down. .243 Winchester loaded but no flash hole in the case. But it's not just Winchester. Everyone of them make problem ammo sometime or another. In fact the last one I heard of was older Lapua .357 magnum. Loaded with a low amount of powder in the case. So if you have a problem with factory ammo. Save the rounds both problem ones and any that have not yet be fired and contact the maker. Provide the lot number of the ammo too. They will most likely make an nice exchange with you for new ammo.

Edited by - Tuna on 12/10/2017 9:30:53 PM
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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
329 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2017 :  08:03:51 AM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We all know what Forrest Gump said..."life is like a box of chocolates". I have seen two guns blown apart in the last few months and the failures pointed to faulty commercial ammo.
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
151 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2017 :  7:52:50 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow! that is upsetting to hear. Since you said that the failures point to commercial ammo. I will leave the other possibles off the table.
Which brings me to my next question. Reloading???
I probably should start a separate post, but I think I will still get some good replies staying on this topic.
I have toyed with the idea of starting to reload myself. But I know zero about it. I have read many posts with all the talk, which I don't understand. It only scares me more. Sounds like rocket science to me. It gets pretty deep with the possible this and that, and wow! good idea. I can't absorb it because I know nothing about it.
I have several friends that do it and swear by it. But campfire talk with a few beers has brought out some stories of this and that going bad also. They are there to tell the story which is good, and they all pretty much say it was their own fault. But too me, how do you toss the difference of reloading and commercial ammo if your in my shoes? No experience.
Trust me on saying that the ones I speak of have been doing it for years. But we all know errors are made.
From the factory, or your own personal reloads. It is always possible.
Main question: How much to get started correctly, my learning tools and education. If it's worth doing.
It's worth doing right...
My focus is on the M1 carbine rounds. They are my most costly. Basically, you pull the trigger twice, you have spent a dollar. I do shoot some 9mm and 380 handguns. But only to stay sharp for home guard.
My two carbines love the ammo as I do also.
Here is the real trick question's. $$ investment for a person like me that is always close to empty.
Is is going to actually save money in the long run? Or would it be more of a fill for the enjoyment of the make? I have plenty of time, just limited money. I don't have several different rifles of different caliber.
So it would be M1 carbine only. I have been saving brass if that helps with input.
Thanks again to all.
PS: I shoot probably 60 rounds each a month. That would be 120 total.


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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
329 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2017 :  07:31:22 AM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't shoot as much 30-caliber carbine as I do other calibers, but I have been reloading for a few years. It came naturally to me to consider reloading the 7.62 x 33. I ran-the-numbers to see if it made economical sense. For a casual shooter....it doesn't. As I recall, after one purchases the brass, projectile, dies, powder, primer and assumes he already has the tools, it takes several thousand rounds to break-even and begin to actually save by reloading.

The cost of loading a single round of 7.62 x 33 is north of 35 cents, if you have to purchase the brass, which doesn't even consider the prorated cost for the tools to do it. Once you accumulate the brass, this cost comes down considerably, but you have to accumulate the brass. By the time you prorate the cost of the tools into the equation, reloading will be more expensive than commercial cost in the short run. You will have to shoot a LOT to make it pay off.

I think most errors in reloading are due to failure of automated systems, ignorance, sloppy work and too much beer. I do not have any progressive equipment that won't allow me to see exactly what's going into the case. Metering devices can be improperly set or break-down. I reload for the 9MM, 38-Special, .357, 45-Colt, 45ACP and the 7.62 x 33. The 7.62 x 33 is the only one I shoot that is case-dimension critical and you will need the case-prep tools to keep it within specs.

I need to add that it is a labor of love....so one dose not always consider the economics when it's fun.

PS: Non re-loaders should save the brass and sell it to those who reload. Even at 10-cents each....that's $5/box you can put toward your next purchase.


Edited by - americanboy on 12/12/2017 10:34:52 AM
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BEYU
Advanced Member



USA
289 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2017 :  11:25:40 AM  Show Profile Send BEYU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have very recently begun to reload .30 carbine. I have been reloading .38 special for a while.

Aside from the cost savings we all hope to have, there is another advantage to reloading; a real increase in accuracy.

It is truly amazing how much tighter my groups are with reloaded ammo!

BEYU

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

- Benj. Franklin
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HB of CJ
Junior Member



USA
68 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2017 :  11:57:59 AM  Show Profile Send HB of CJ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I still have not found that long S&B fired factory case. Somewhere. We from time to time re consider returning to hand loading the .30 Carbine. The little round does have its quirks. Proper hand loading is necessary.

Lecture: ... The USGI M1 and M2 Carbine were war time expedient platforms. While safe to shoot with a good condition gun and proper ammo some things have to be more correct or closer than other platforms.

The Carbine must have exact correct head space. The M2 can absorb slightly looser head space but at a considered risk or price. The hand loaded case length MUST be exact. Too short is better than too long.

With a too short of case, (1.280 of shorter) one risks busted extractors and pounded bolt heads, but the gun will not blow up. In extreme events a separated case. If the case is too long and the gun not perfect.

Ones takes the risk of a bolt out of battery primer ignition. BOOM! A design weakness. We try to understand this and it makes case preparation a bit longer. No big deal but something one needs to understand.

Finally, (this post is too long!) consider the requirement for a full power military equal powder charge. A very slight tapered straight case. A proper gas seal is necessary. That plus snappy cycling.

All of the above means more time and money. Right now it is easier just to buy factory ammo. The grand kids want to learn about hand loading. What is a grand pa going to do? More time and money. :)

All Oregon State, US Code Laws And NFA Rules Apply.
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
151 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2017 :  8:09:25 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks to everyone on the replies. All good info. I think for now, I will just keep buying the PPU ammo, start reading up a little, and decide later. It sounds like an investment of at least $600 for everything?
I really haven't looked because I would not know where to start for name brands, etc.. So I'm just guessing.
I agree brass cutting in of essence. Both my carbines are .001 to .0015 over minimal needed head space and that does worry me a tad with any ammo. I would rather have a little more clearance actually. That is why I never buy reloads from gun shows or at all. Being able to cut and reload my own would be a plus.
The mention of accuracy is better with good reloads. Tighter groups. What actually is considered G-VG-E?
I like shooting at 60yrds for the most part. I'm old, the eyes, the everything, gets in the way of things.
I can put all in the black of a 8" target. Red is bulls-eye and I get that sometimes with luck I call it.
I felt that was fare shooting with a M1 carbine? They were not made for accuracy at it's best.
At 100yrds with head and full torso target. He darn sure knew he was hit, and with a few good kill shots. Once again, probably luck. At 250yrds I tape the full torso target to the steel elk's neck, shoulder, and chest area. Lot's of misses of course. But do finally hit it more than once. Hard to tell how many times because the bullets just splatter and tear heck out of the paper. Ha - sure is fun though.
Not sure where I was going with all that. Just had to tell it.
Accuracy is awesome, but as long as I'm hitting the 8" sweet spot at 60yds. I think I'm happy with factory ammo for now compared to reloading for the purpose of better. Since I only shoot twice a month, and 70% is carbine.
It just does not seem worthy per price wise to invest in re-loading yet.
Thanks again to all, and yes! I'm saving my brass. Wish I had started earlier.



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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
329 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  3:45:31 PM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
U can pick-up a beat-em-bang-em Lee Loader for the 30 Carbine off ebay for like $30. A pound of powder, package of primers, some case-lube and a cheap Lee case trimmer and you can be having fun for not much over $100. Lee loaders have been around for ever and they work. Ideal for the occasional re-loader.
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jimb16
Moderator



USA
3105 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  6:36:55 PM  Show Profile Send jimb16 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The carbine was designed to hold a 4 inch group at 100 yards. Very few of them shoot that badly. Most will hold 3 inch or less. If it is larger than 4, I would suspect the stock fit before anything else. The recoil plate should hold the action firmly in the stock. With the barrel band free of the stock, the recoil plate should hold the action so that the barrel is about 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch above the barrel channel. If not then that needs to be corrected. Type 2 and 3 bands are better than type 1 because the hold the barrel more firmly. Even well worn barrels can be fairly accurate. Muzzle wear can be deceptive. In many carbines there may not appear to be any rifling at the muzzle. Shoot it before you scrap it. It may simply be counter-bored to correct for cleaning rod wear.

OGCA Lifer,NRA Life member, son of a 325th GIR Glider Rider
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
151 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  6:55:58 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I will look into that, but gotta say the wording used (haha) is scary or taken wrong. Beat-em bang-em loader and cheap case trimmer?
Last thing I want is bottom line, to go along with my inexperience.
Don't you also need a brass tumbler? You mention a bag of primers like they are all the same. Are they?
Surely not? Just asking.
I guess I need too take baby steps, do my shopping and re-post later with those questions. Type of powder, etc.
I can look easily enough myself via google on some schooling. But I'm sure I will also get caught up in everyone's shortcuts or bad advice also.
Is there a particular site that you might recommend?
The ABC's of reloading, or a good one on 30 cal carbine only would be awesome?
Thanks again to all.
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
151 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  8:04:11 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks jimb16, got your send right after my reply to americanboy.
I cannot come close to a 3 to 4 inch pattern at 100 yrds. I did indeed ask though, eh'
Maybe I should put my glasses on, but I hate shooting with them.
You mention the stock for recoil plate match. I was schooled with trying 2 dozen recoil plates. It makes sense. Didn't want to hear it, but it makes sense. Could be the stock, and also explains some of the mix match from the rebuild process. Swap till it fits, and move on to the next?
I do understand that the match made there is most critical. My two carbines have maybe just under 1/2 inch on the barrel chamber clearance. Both have type 3 bayonet bands.
I think now it's mostly me. Eyes, trigger pull, etc.
I do have to ask. Do you file the front sights to a point? At 100 yrds. My whole target is eaten up by the front sight. It's more of a judge and go for me. Plus I'm just there for the fun and enjoy. No match shooting.
Just me and some friends enjoying the day. But I do like to beat them when I can.
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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
329 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2017 :  05:49:26 AM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Satanta

I will look into that, but gotta say the wording used (haha) is scary or taken wrong. Beat-em bang-em loader and cheap case trimmer?
Last thing I want is bottom line, to go along with my inexperience.
Don't you also need a brass tumbler? You mention a bag of primers like they are all the same. Are they?
Surely not? Just asking.
I guess I need too take baby steps, do my shopping and re-post later with those questions. Type of powder, etc.
I can look easily enough myself via google on some schooling. But I'm sure I will also get caught up in everyone's shortcuts or bad advice also.
Is there a particular site that you might recommend?
The ABC's of reloading, or a good one on 30 cal carbine only would be awesome?
Thanks again to all.




Last thing I'd want to to is scare you off....LOL. With a $125 investment and using your own brass, you would need to load around 700 rounds to recover the investment and start saving. The projectile, primer and powder will cost about 20-cents a round. It's not rocket science and no lab-coat is required, but you do have to pay attention and be careful. If you're interested, just spend some time on the web. You can find lots of good video's on the use of the Lee Loader.

All said, as I mentioned B4, it may not be worth the investment unless you shoot a lot. I will never shoot close to 500-rounds/year in 7.62 x 33, but since I reload for other calibers and have the equipment, reloading for the carbine comes naturally. Personally, I would not make the investment just to reload for 30-carbine.
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shadycon
Veteran Member



USA
1371 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2017 :  07:34:25 AM  Show Profile Send shadycon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Buy a reloading manual! I use a Lyman manual. It will tell you what you need. Case spec's, types of projectiles, powder charges of different powders, and instructions. Nothing wrong with a used turret press, I'm using one that has been in the family for 50+/- yrs.

M1's-R-FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!
TSMG's-R-MORE-FUN!!!!!
ENJOY LIFE & HAVE FUN!!
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HB of CJ
Junior Member



USA
68 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2017 :  3:38:21 PM  Show Profile Send HB of CJ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We have a M2. Probably shoot off over 2000 rounds per year. At this point hand loading is not an option for us. We would have to purchase everything necessary to hand load for the .30 Carbine.

No time. It is easier for US to just buy factory ammo when we can afford to do so. Right now SGammo is selling Sellier and Bellot SP Carbine ammo for less than 36 cent a shot delivered to us.

But ... and here is the big qualifier, if one shoots a high round count, hand loading can provide another fun aspect of the hobby. Plus hand loading results in much better safer ammo for the M1.

All Oregon State, US Code Laws And NFA Rules Apply.
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
151 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2017 :  6:46:40 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Once again, thanks for everyone's help and input. I will do some shopping around, get a manual, watch some YouTube on reloading, etc. I have more time than money on my hands, but think I would enjoy it.
Santa said he was out of spare cash. But maybe by tax return time, things will be more pretty, heha!
HB of CJ: I'm so jealous of you and the M2, and I will look again at S&B ammo. I get all my ammo from SG.
Rumor was to not buy the SP. True of False?? I had always heard that SP tended to drag a little more at the feed ramp and also the front of the magazine? So I always use FMJ because I was having some problems.
I have now corrected all that with tweaking the mag ramps/ears. Everything works great now on all six mags.
Maybe it's time to try the SP. If you use them with full auto. I don't see why they wouldn't work for me now that I have everything working smoothly. Plus the price is better.
I also have heard that SP ammo leaves more unwanted in the receiver and barrel? Another true or false question?
Thanks again everyone, and while it's on my mind. I wish you all a Merry Christmas!
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Tuna
Moderator



3240 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2017 :  8:16:34 PM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Carbines either like SP ammo or hate it. If yours likes it then your ahead of the game as SP ammo is more accurate in a carbine then FMJ. If it will not feed SP well then you may be able to polish the feed ramp and that can make all the difference in the world for feeding the SP ammo.
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jimb16
Moderator



USA
3105 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2017 :  9:24:04 PM  Show Profile Send jimb16 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The only time you file a front sight is if you are hitting below the target using a 6 o'clock hold. Most carbines were rebuilt and they put whatever front sight on them that they had handy. In the majority of cases they shoot too high so the front sight needs to be built up to move the point of impact down. JB Weld is a good product for doing that.

OGCA Lifer,NRA Life member, son of a 325th GIR Glider Rider
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HB of CJ
Junior Member



USA
68 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2017 :  3:19:24 PM  Show Profile Send HB of CJ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The bullet tips should never touch the forward end of the magazine. It is fun and easy to gently polish up both receiver feed ramps. Only polish, be careful not to remove any material.

Polish the long ways. Do not polish side ways on the ramps. We used 600 grit paper with a pencil pusher. Many strokes. Takes some time for the ramp to smooth out. Then 0000 steel wool.

Same thing with the bottom half of the bolt face rim. Just polish. Same thing with both sides of the extractor. Do NOT polish the bolt face. All fun and easy. Our M2 loves SP S&B ammo.

Much easier to remove the extractor. Fun using that bolt tool.
Also CONSIDER polishing the hammer face and the rear end of the bolt and firing pin. Look for any wear while doing this.

NOTE: We do not like the bolt hold open magazine followers. They tend over time and round counts to scratch the bottom half of the bolt face rim when we do rip out mag dumps and changes.

We prefer the non bolt hold followers. Easier on the bolt. The Carbine is designed to run dry and have the hammer drop on an empty chamber. We also do tactical mags dumps and recharges.

All much fun and easy to detail strip the USGI Carbine and do some judicious fitting and polishing. I guess you call this tuning. The M2 Carbine is stock. Nothing done with the rocker timing.

All Oregon State, US Code Laws And NFA Rules Apply.
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
151 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2017 :  7:27:08 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks again to all, I did the polish on the ramps, but have yet to try. Everything was working fine before, so I don't know if I will notice any difference. It was fun enough I guess. Advice given was received, and only polished. It only kind of made me frustrated seeing the low area's though, haha! Not bad - but there. Natural to keep wanting to go more, but was advised to not remove any metal. If you do polish. In my eyes you are still removing?
Anyway -- as awesome as this has been. I will start a new post on the reloading. My fault it turned into so many directions. But all knowledge has been greatly noted. Hope to see all and more with the fresh post.
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Mannlicher
Starting Member



USA
12 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2018 :  12:51:55 PM  Show Profile Send Mannlicher a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Aguila brand from Mexico is decent ammo. Recently a friend gifted me with 18 50 round boxes of FMJ. That will keep me shooting for a long time.
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