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 Misc. Firearms Discussion (M1 Garand, 1911, etc.)
 I have reservations about the 5.56 x 45 cartridge
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Captain O
Advanced Member


USA
346 Posts

Posted - 03/22/2016 :  8:21:30 PM  Show Profile Send Captain O a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I read about a man that ran, a "Bonnie & Clyde" on a junked Chevrolet Suburban. Shooting an M4 in 5.56 x 45, the 55 grain FMJ pointed ammunition routinely failed to penetrate the SUV's doors and hood. Had there been occupants inside the old vehicle would bave been rasonably well-protected from the M4's ammunition. (Barrier penetration is not the round's long suit).

The man picked up his M1 Carbine and, voila! The 110 grain FMJ ammunition handily passed through the vehicle's doors and would have likely perforated (if not killed) both the driver and passenger.

This is just another reason that I'm not too fond of the "ground hog gun" that is the 5,56 x 45 cartridge.

"Faster than a speeding insult, more powerful than an ulterior motive, able to leap to conclusions in a single bound, its... Captain Obvious"!

"Living well is the best revenge". - George Herbert

"The Administration of Justice should be tempered by mercy, but mercy should never interfere with the true Administration of Justice". - Captain Obvious

"Fast is fine, but accuracy is final". - Wyatt Earp

"Spelling and grammar count". - Captain Obvious

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BucketBack
Junior Member



USA
74 Posts

Posted - 03/23/2016 :  10:28:04 AM  Show Profile Send BucketBack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
[gv]You must be logged in to see this link.[/gv]

M193 reloads rock out at 3200 fps + out of my M16A1(no otto sear)

Edited by - BucketBack on 03/23/2016 10:30:02 AM
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BucketBack
Junior Member



USA
74 Posts

Posted - 03/23/2016 :  10:32:06 AM  Show Profile Send BucketBack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You must be logged in to see this link.
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rg1911
Senior Member



USA
541 Posts

Posted - 03/23/2016 :  11:49:50 AM  Show Profile Send rg1911 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The M4 with its shorter barrel has a significantly reduced muzzle velocity that has caused problems in the Sandbox. Also, that 55-gr FMJ bullet is not noted for its penetration abilities.

An M16-AR15 with a standard barrel and the 62-gr "green tip" penetrator round wouldn't have any problems making it through a car door.

That said, the carbine does make a nice, handy short-range weapon. Of course, it was designed for that.

Richard
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Captain O
Advanced Member



USA
346 Posts

Posted - 03/23/2016 :  1:59:52 PM  Show Profile Send Captain O a Private Message  Reply with Quote
At shorter ranges (in which most gun battles take place) I'll take my low-recoiling 110 grain JSP in the M1 Carbine into the fray any day of the week. (I won't even break a sweat)!

This works for me.

"Faster than a speeding insult, more powerful than an ulterior motive, able to leap to conclusions in a single bound, its... Captain Obvious"!

"Living well is the best revenge". - George Herbert

"The Administration of Justice should be tempered by mercy, but mercy should never interfere with the true Administration of Justice". - Captain Obvious

"Fast is fine, but accuracy is final". - Wyatt Earp

"Spelling and grammar count". - Captain Obvious

Edited by - Captain O on 03/23/2016 2:08:31 PM
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BucketBack
Junior Member



USA
74 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2016 :  08:41:02 AM  Show Profile Send BucketBack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I rotate the M1 for M16 for the 16", then back around, because I can. Any will work up close and personal.
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shadycon
Veteran Member



USA
1376 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2016 :  10:58:42 AM  Show Profile Send shadycon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Try the 7.65x25 Tok, 87 gr.@ 1600fps +/-. Good for up close and personal! PPsh 32 rd. stick or 74 rd. drum.

M1's-R-FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!
TSMG's-R-MORE-FUN!!!!!
ENJOY LIFE & HAVE FUN!!
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Captain O
Advanced Member



USA
346 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2016 :  11:22:27 AM  Show Profile Send Captain O a Private Message  Reply with Quote
shadycon: I already own a Yugo M57 in 7.62 x 25. There's little that I haven't learned about the cartridge.

The Soviet pistol cartridge arrived in 1933 (in Fedor Tokarev's TT-33). It worked for many years until the Soviets decided to create a blow back cartridge known as the 9 x 18 Makarov for use in their pistols and submachine guns. They are less costly to manufacture than both the TT-33 or the PPSh-41 (submachine guns).

"Faster than a speeding insult, more powerful than an ulterior motive, able to leap to conclusions in a single bound, its... Captain Obvious"!

"Living well is the best revenge". - George Herbert

"The Administration of Justice should be tempered by mercy, but mercy should never interfere with the true Administration of Justice". - Captain Obvious

"Fast is fine, but accuracy is final". - Wyatt Earp

"Spelling and grammar count". - Captain Obvious
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Kilibreaux
Junior Member



USA
51 Posts

Posted - 06/30/2016 :  07:19:28 AM  Show Profile Send Kilibreaux a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Velocity is the decider of fact here. From a 20" barrel, the M193 ball round is screaming at over 3,300 fps. The M855 clocks in around 3,000 fps. From the shorter 14.5" M4 Carbine barrel, velocity is seriously reduced, though still capable of delivering a "stopping wound" inside 100 meters.
The .30 Carbine by comparison looks pretty good...with a larger base area/total pressure, the .30 caliber bullet from a standard barrel delivers impressive terminal impact IF using soft-point ammo. ANY soft-point clocking nearly 2,000 fps is superior to the bullet 1/2 the mass, dependent upon high-velocity and terminal tumbling from a "long" barrel, yet suddenly neutered by an ultra-short barrel that effectively negates the cartridge's superior characteristics.
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Captain O
Advanced Member



USA
346 Posts

Posted - 07/02/2016 :  10:21:37 PM  Show Profile Send Captain O a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Since I am ordering a Ruger AR 5.56 whose barrel has a 1 full turn in 8" of barrel, the 62 grain military ball should work well. There are good reports on the Carbine's performance.

I am excited over this little entry-level "M-4gery" to make it shoot well with surplus ammunition.

Starting in September, I'll begin saving for my M1 Carbine. It may take a while, ('till March) but I'll make it.

"Faster than a speeding insult, more powerful than an ulterior motive, able to leap to conclusions in a single bound, its... Captain Obvious"!

"Living well is the best revenge". - George Herbert

"The Administration of Justice should be tempered by mercy, but mercy should never interfere with the true Administration of Justice". - Captain Obvious

"Fast is fine, but accuracy is final". - Wyatt Earp

"Spelling and grammar count". - Captain Obvious

Edited by - Captain O on 07/02/2016 10:31:48 PM
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Kilibreaux
Junior Member



USA
51 Posts

Posted - 07/03/2016 :  02:11:41 AM  Show Profile Send Kilibreaux a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bullets versus cars often result in less impressive results than expected. Many years ago I just happened to have an old car lying around in my back yard, so I decided to test a few things...
My Desert Eagle, stoked with 240 grain JHP ammo failed to punch through the driver's side door when it hit the reinforcing panel! I was shocked! I expected the vaunted .44 Magnum to go through and through from the side, and some did fully penetrate in areas where there is little too nothing between the inner and outer skin, but that was a sobering experience to see a .44 Mag stopped cold by a car door. Granted, an expanding, exposed lead nose bullet isn't built to punch through multiple layers of steel, spaced several inches apart, and I am sure had I had a more modern style XTP, or for sure a FMJ, every round would have punched through.

The 5.56x45 with poor sectional density, and equally poor ballistic coefficient. The reason its long-range ballistics look so good has much to do with starting velocity well above 3,000 fps from an original 20" barrel, combined with the high-sight location that sets up a really nice "Battle Sight Zero" due to the round coming "up" from a boreline 3" below sight line as it arcs away toward the target. But I digress...

Because the bullets are so light, relatively short for caliber, AND in recent years, fired from 14.5" M4 barrels which significantly reduces initial speed, one should not expect to stop cars with single shots, using M193 Ball ammo. The M855 round is designed to be better, and from a 20" barrel is capable of mid-range penetration equal to the 7.62x51, however, when fired from barrels 4-5.5" shorter, the M855 really starts losing steam it's steel core cannot compensate for at 62 grains weight. The slower-moving 7.62x39 round with over double the mass, being generally fired even today from its original design spec 16" barrel, delivers significantly more kinetic energy, combined with an equally higher "momentum" (non-scientific, but still revealing derivative), will outperform the 5.56x45 in close-range, barrier penetration comparisons - hands down.

This is part of the genesis of newer rounds to fit the AR platform yet improve close-range "power" such as the 6.8 Remington, and even the 7.62x35 AAC (.300 Blackout). A .300 Blackout loaded with 110 to 125 grain bullets is an almost identical match to the 7.62x39, and even when loaded with heavier 147 grain FMJ bullets appropriated from the 7.62x51, is capable of near-7.62x39 kinetic energy, delivered via a relatively "heavy," pointed bullet that will deliver better close-range car penetration.

Please note that the .30 Carbine FMJ delivers a good combination of Kinetic energy, bullet weight, and so-called "momentum" energy, and, in a non-expanding format should be very good at penetrating car material. One of the reasons the military really isn't interested in "expanding" projectiles despite their known superior stopping performance is the trade-off from brute penetration which is ultimately the preferred bias.

In many ways the M1 Carbine and it's chambered round is the "better" all-around choice for modern CQB if one considers where ballistics development has been headed. Today one need not choose between a soft point bullet that is highly destructive from the Carbine, and an FMJ which performs similarly to other non-expanding, thick-jacket bullets. Something like the new "penetrator" rounds using solid copper slugs with machined in longitudinal flutes to cause hydralic effect while maintaining a very hard, non-deforming profile really improve the close-range terminal performance of any caliber. When I handle my M1 Carbines I am struck by just how light and easy they are to carry and deploy compared to the entire host of "modern' designs.
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Captain O
Advanced Member



USA
346 Posts

Posted - 07/03/2016 :  9:54:42 PM  Show Profile Send Captain O a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Over time, I'll learn which load to use in both the 5.56 NATO and 7.62 x 33 Carbine. The "house load" for the 7.62 x 33 falls into two camps:

a) The CorBon 100 grain PDX load (an excellent PD load of excellent balance) and,

b) the 110 grain soft point (various manufacturers).

Both work well.

For my forthcoming Ruger AR 5.56, I'm inclined to load a spicy 55 grain hollow point loaded with a propellant burn rate appropriate for the 16.1 inch carbine length barrel.

Many fancy the 14.5" barrel length with a 5.5" flash suppressor. I can't see the advantage of a shorter barrel. You're losing the velocity you are attempting to generate from the 62 grain 5.56 NATO loads. I'll take the 16.1 inch barrel at the minimum, while preferring an 18+ inch barrel.

That's just my opinion.

"Faster than a speeding insult, more powerful than an ulterior motive, able to leap to conclusions in a single bound, its... Captain Obvious"!

"Living well is the best revenge". - George Herbert

"The Administration of Justice should be tempered by mercy, but mercy should never interfere with the true Administration of Justice". - Captain Obvious

"Fast is fine, but accuracy is final". - Wyatt Earp

"Spelling and grammar count". - Captain Obvious
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shadycon
Veteran Member



USA
1376 Posts

Posted - 07/04/2016 :  08:00:12 AM  Show Profile Send shadycon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
M1 carbine to AR15 platform- what's next??????
Get a Thompson 50 rd drum and spray!
Happy 4th!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

M1's-R-FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!
TSMG's-R-MORE-FUN!!!!!
ENJOY LIFE & HAVE FUN!!
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Captain O
Advanced Member



USA
346 Posts

Posted - 07/04/2016 :  11:05:32 AM  Show Profile Send Captain O a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I lived through the ridiculous AWB from the poisonous Clinton Administration that (temporarily) forces me into the Ruger AR 5.56.

It will be fun and loud, but eventually I want to return to my "first love"... the .30 Carbine.

"Faster than a speeding insult, more powerful than an ulterior motive, able to leap to conclusions in a single bound, its... Captain Obvious"!

"Living well is the best revenge". - George Herbert

"The Administration of Justice should be tempered by mercy, but mercy should never interfere with the true Administration of Justice". - Captain Obvious

"Fast is fine, but accuracy is final". - Wyatt Earp

"Spelling and grammar count". - Captain Obvious
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shadycon
Veteran Member



USA
1376 Posts

Posted - 07/04/2016 :  2:31:50 PM  Show Profile Send shadycon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Who cares!

M1's-R-FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!
TSMG's-R-MORE-FUN!!!!!
ENJOY LIFE & HAVE FUN!!
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Captain O
Advanced Member



USA
346 Posts

Posted - 07/04/2016 :  11:46:15 PM  Show Profile Send Captain O a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Left is the reason that I had to hurry my decision. I don't trust the "Hilldog" (and she is a lying dog). The Ruger AR 5.56 will suffice until the election is over.

"Faster than a speeding insult, more powerful than an ulterior motive, able to leap to conclusions in a single bound, its... Captain Obvious"!

"Living well is the best revenge". - George Herbert

"The Administration of Justice should be tempered by mercy, but mercy should never interfere with the true Administration of Justice". - Captain Obvious

"Fast is fine, but accuracy is final". - Wyatt Earp

"Spelling and grammar count". - Captain Obvious
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