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phh1
Greenhorn Member


France
36 Posts

Posted - 03/05/2015 :  4:32:56 PM  Show Profile Send phh1 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello.

In fact I dont't know where to post this topic. Here's my second carbine.She was sold to me as an underwood last year because of the barrel. But under the rear sight I saw an Inland receiver. The serial number is 5 131 XXX



What does the mark H-E-R mean ?


Edited by - phh1 on 03/05/2015 4:35:10 PM

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phh1
Greenhorn Member



France
36 Posts

Posted - 03/05/2015 :  4:45:57 PM  Show Profile Send phh1 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The bolt is circular (I mean not flat, sorry if the word is wrong.
The mark "30 short" below is for its caliber... Barrel shortened of 1/20" (1 turn of thread for convenience to french law to be a "hunting caliber". That's the law...
.

She has the bayonet lug so it's a late model (rebuilt ?)



Edited by - phh1 on 03/06/2015 12:21:46 PM
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phh1
Greenhorn Member



France
36 Posts

Posted - 03/05/2015 :  4:50:29 PM  Show Profile Send phh1 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The barrel : underwood 10/43 with the flaming bomb


The front sight


Stock has a stamp "LW-B" but no other.



Edited by - phh1 on 03/05/2015 5:05:42 PM
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phh1
Greenhorn Member



France
36 Posts

Posted - 03/05/2015 :  4:53:06 PM  Show Profile Send phh1 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Trigger group : it's Rock-ola.


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phh1
Greenhorn Member



France
36 Posts

Posted - 03/05/2015 :  4:58:58 PM  Show Profile Send phh1 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Front swivel is marked with a "A" in a circle.


And there's another mark on the rear sigt


I really don't know the story of this one. But she's been made of lots of spare parts

Can you tell me something about her ? I can disassemble and make other photos when she's naked
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shadycon
Veteran Member



USA
1376 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2015 :  07:44:38 AM  Show Profile Send shadycon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting changes for hunting restrictions! Can you show a .30 short compaired to a .30 carbine? GK

M1's-R-FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!
TSMG's-R-MORE-FUN!!!!!
ENJOY LIFE & HAVE FUN!!
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phh1
Greenhorn Member



France
36 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2015 :  08:29:04 AM  Show Profile Send phh1 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Isn't it ? :-S
There was a time babies in .30 short were not restricted. Those in .30 carbine were...



Sorry for the low quality, I did the picture with my gsm. On the left,.30 carbine. On the right, .30 short.
The case's length is 31,2 to 31,5mm instead of the 32,7mm of .30 carbine. But it depends on the carbine... This one can't stand cases over 31,2mm...
OAL becomes 41mm instead of 42,7mm. So you must adapt the powder load.
Happily .30 carbine is no more restricted since september 2013.
Now gunmiths offer to re-chamber .30 short to .30 carbine. A few years ago they did reverse. So funny (not to say stupid) but the law...

Things were the same with 30.06 springfield for m1 Garand. We have "30.06 court". Case shortened of 1/10" (one thread turn of the barrel).
Now 30.06 sprg is no more restricted, as .308w,8x57js, 8mm lebel which were "war calibers". (8x60S 8x68S, .300WM, .338LM were less dangerous :oD)

Edited by - phh1 on 03/06/2015 12:22:12 PM
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Tuna
Moderator



3262 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2015 :  10:16:04 AM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well your carbine has been through at least one full rebuild. That is when the parts like the barrel and the stock, rear sights, trigger housing and barrel band were changed as well as internal parts. It appears to have been painted at one time. The letters on the recoil plate are not USGI and could be for anything. The numbers on the bottom of the trigger housing appears to mean the trigger housing was at one time on what is known as a Bavarian carbine. One used by German post war. Your Inland not Underwood carbine was made about May 1944 if that helps.

Edited by - Tuna on 03/06/2015 10:17:03 AM
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phh1
Greenhorn Member



France
36 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2015 :  4:56:50 PM  Show Profile Send phh1 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the info. I'll try to take pictures when I'll disassemble it for cleaning.
It seems that all that remains of the original carbine is... the receiver !!!
A question : Did they often mount underwood barrels on inland receivers ?
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1059 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2015 :  5:53:13 PM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Inland carbines shipped from the factory with Inland barrels. However, a few of the carbine manufacturers did not make barrels at all. All carbine manufacturers who were able to make barrels participated in a program during WWII called the "Government-Free-Issue Barrel Program". This was done to ensure the availability of this critical component to other manufacturers who did not have that capability in order to meet peak demand. Underwood was one of the most prolific of these manufacturers and made a lot of extra barrels. Just in 1943 they shipped over half a million barrels to other various carbine manufacturers in addition to the ones used on their own carbines. Obviously they made a lot of barrels that were used for replacement purposes such as for your carbine.

JackP
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Tuna
Moderator



3262 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2015 :  10:11:11 PM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
During the rebuild the barrel on your Inland was bad so a barrel that was taken off another carbine that had a bad receiver was used to rebarrel your carbine. Happened quite often during the rebuild programs and it could be any barrel on any receiver. Yours just happens to be an Underwood barrel.
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phh1
Greenhorn Member



France
36 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2015 :  12:44:01 PM  Show Profile Send phh1 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the info
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1059 Posts

Posted - 03/10/2015 :  6:55:57 PM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought I had seen the "HE-R" markings on your recoil plate before but couldn't remember where. Finally I remembered. Here's a link to a Bavarian carbine web site that mentions them.

You must be logged in to see this link.

You might want to contact the author of this web site, Jim Mock, to share the particulars of your carbine. He has an email link at the bottom of this article. You may be able to help shed some light on the mystery surrounding this particular marking.

JackP

Edited by - Jackp on 03/10/2015 6:57:24 PM
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1059 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2015 :  11:11:40 AM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The "LW-B" on the stock is for Lumb Woodworking for IBM.

Rear sight "I.R. CO. 7160060" was made by International Register Company.

Barrel band with "A" in a circle was made by Atlas Manufacturing Co., a post war supplier for arsenal rebuilds.

JackP

Edited by - Jackp on 03/16/2015 7:48:01 PM
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phh1
Greenhorn Member



France
36 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2015 :  04:47:38 AM  Show Profile Send phh1 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jackp

The "LW-B" on the stock is for Lumb Woodworking for IBM.

Rear sight "I.R. CO. 7160060" was made by International Register Company.

Barrel band with "A" in a circle was made by a post war supplier for arsenal rebuilds. Don't know who the subcontractor was.



So this baby is a complete rebuilt made of spare parts gathered here and there. Do you think it's an arsenal rebuilt after WWII ? The trigger group of a "bavarian carbine" seems to say no...
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1059 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2015 :  10:21:56 AM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Everything points to this carbine being a post war rebuild that was used by the Hessen Rural Police. If the three numbers on the trigger housing match the last three digits of the serial number on the receiver then it's likely that it hasn't been rebuilt since returning from Germany. This carbine may be of real interest to serious Bavarian carbine collectors.

JackP

Edited by - Jackp on 03/14/2015 10:30:25 AM
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Sleeplessnashadow
Starting Member



USA
19 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2015 :  12:39:17 AM  Show Profile Send Sleeplessnashadow a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi guys. While it would help to know if the 3 numbers are on any other parts, all things considered I'm ready to call this one of the carbines used by the "rural" police of Hessen during the American Occupation.

The HE-R was put there under the direction of the U.S. Office of Military Government for the Land/State of Hessen. The "rural" police was the American version of the German Landespolizei.

The three digits may be the last 3 digits of the serial number. Or, it may be an inventory number. These were put there by the German Police. Bavaria used the serial number, Wurttemberg-Baden Occupation Sector used inventory numbers.

I'd like to see a better pic or at least the info of the markings along the top of the receiver to the left of the bolt.

I would expect this carbine to also have proof house inspection marks on the barrel, receiver and maybe the bolt. Any info on these being present and what they are? May be French, may be German.

If you could contact me directly I'm trying to learn more on these for recording their history.

On another note, the caliber .30 Short for France ... Iver Johnson made carbines in this caliber for export to France 1978-1990. I have one of them made towards the end of that period. Bill Ricca owned a company (R&H Mfg in Wayne, NJ) that made the cartridges for Iver Johnson. The cartridges were also exported to France.

Rheinisch-Westfalische Sprengstoff A.G. of Nuremberg (RWS) is the only European country I'm aware of that made the cartridges. Headstamp was RWS above .30 Court.

Are there any companies still making these cartridges for French owners?

Thanks

Jim Mock
USCarbines.com
BavarianM1Carbines.com
M1CarbinesInc.com

Jim@BavarianM1Carbines.com

Edited by - Sleeplessnashadow on 03/15/2015 12:48:37 AM
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