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 Barrel slugging and picking bullet size
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Satanta
Advanced Member


USA
176 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2018 :  4:51:40 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had never done this before and not even sure what my results are telling me.
First off, my commercial carbine barrel is getting a little tired. Measure's a 3 on the gauge. Still has decent patterns but you can see that it prefers my reload coated Bayou bullets at .309 over the FMJ.
I used a soft egg fishing weight for my slugging. It was at just under
.311 Maybe not big enough for my test. But since this was my first try ever. I was a little over concerned of problems with sticking it.
My results were .304 and .309 depending on the rifling.
I think I remember that a new barrel should be .300?
I finally used up all my .309 bullets. I can get .310 and even .311
with special order request.
The Bayou coating is working well and I see no leading after shooting.
But since my grouping is much better using the same load with the .309
compared to the .308 jacket. I should stay away from .308 It's just a waste of coin for accuracy.
Should I consider moving up to the .310 or .311?
Or better yet. Am I not making any sense at all?
It's still a keeper, shoots and functions great. It's just getting tired on the barrel end and time to re-order bullets.
It's a Universal type II, so finding a good used barrel is not likely.
Just need to make do because the carbine is worth keeping.
All has been switched over to USGI that can be. The gas block has been
welded again for precaution. Never had a problem, but knew they do show up.
The slide is the 1034 hardened replacement. The bolt is a flat Inland.
I might be nuts. But less weight, and the older style lug fits better in the open slide. Overall point of contact at the know areas of cracks is reduced. Better said. It just fits better.
Unfortunately, I still have a Universal receiver and barrel.
Slide also of course, but I have no concerns with that anymore.
Sorry, got off the subject.
Do any of you reloaders use .310 or even .311 lead bullets?

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jimb16
Moderator



USA
3122 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2018 :  5:35:14 PM  Show Profile Send jimb16 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The original barrel measurement should be .308 not .300. The bullets were made at .3085 dia. A barrel measuring a 2 is nowhere near worn out Most barrels measuring 4 are still well within spec. You don't really loose accuracy until wear reaches around 5+.

OGCA Lifer,NRA Life member, son of a 325th GIR Glider Rider
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
176 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2018 :  7:56:13 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks jimb16 for your reply. Most for the correction on bore size. I'm still so learning and admit that I still don't get it.
First off. The known gauge that I paid for with a reading 3 max plus swallow is of no use?
So many times I see the gauge used for sell, not counting it being a question ask from possible buyers.
I kinda get the wear verses accuracy. Mine does fine. Actually, if I were aiming at their nose at 75 yards. I would get their ears and maybe some cheek easily. I'm good with the overall.
My question, although I probably do not present it well.
Was directed towards the flash of high temp gas passing past and through the rifling around the bullet.
Which means your not getting a good seal.
I'm learning, but understand this causes a melting blow torch effect with lead bullets, which results in leading the barrel. Plus the effect of excessive barrel flash also with a jacket bullet that is not a proper fit?
I see no reason for this to happen if adjustments can be made per bullet size and fit.
Maybe I'm making more out of this than needed. Part of learning.
To me. It's making or using, shelf ammo, or select. The bullet to fit the barrel. I assumed that was what slugging a barrel was all about. Correct sizing.
Thanks again to all. If I don't ask, then no point in learning. If I absorb only 1% given. Then it did not go to waste.
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Tuna
Moderator



3265 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2018 :  9:19:52 PM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Your jousting against windmills. You keep over thinking things. The most muzzle wear comes from cleaning rods and not bullets. Muzzle flash means the powder being burned is a bit on the slow side for the carbine. Nothing wrong with it. With lead bullets try to keep the velocity about 1600 fps or use a gas check!!! No blow by then. You do NOT need bullets at 310 or larger. The carbine is NOT a target rifle!!!!!! Larger bullets can and will damage the carbine.
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
176 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2018 :  12:40:12 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Tuna. Your right, I do tend to over think things. There is always so much out there to read and so much of it is conflicting. Since I'm still learning and don't have the hands on experience all under my belt yet.
I do tend to beat my head against the wall a lot.
My lead bullets do have the gas check. I had no idea more wear was caused by cleaning rods than by firing.
I assume you are referring towards the brass brushes?
Thanks....
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HB of CJ
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2018 :  3:51:00 PM  Show Profile Send HB of CJ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Take apart a 00 buckshot shell and measure the pellet. Should be way over .308. Tap the buck shot down the bore. Mic it. Do it with several buck shot and see if your results are all the same.

We used wheel weight cast lead bullets. Sized to .310. No gas checks. I understand coated bullets can be a little bit tighter? Ask you coated bullet maker. You might go slightly larger.

Safety concern. The USGI Carbine chamber has a very slight taper. Practically straight walled but not quite. A snappy load is required to seat the case during firing. Reduced loads are iffy.

Examine your freshly fired brass. Also look at the powder stains. There should be little or none. If your fired cases are blackened that means PERHAPS a heavier load is necessary.

Combine that with lead bullets and you have a slight concern. We used 15.0 of H110 with wheel weight cast lead bullets sized to .310. No gas checks. Only my Spring Tube Rockola shaved lead.

And only at the gas port. Nobody else's Carbines seemed to have a problem. Coated lead bullets can be driven faster. The USGI M1 Carbine needs a full power load for safety and cycling.

However, a hand load with a .310 or even a .311 coated bullet MAY slightly swell the brass. The hand load may look funny. Hand cycle some hand loads, (SAFELY) through your Carbine. Observe.

If the hand load chambers without sticking and if the coated bullet manufacture suggests you can run a slightly larger diameter bullet, do it. Work up slowly on the powder. Eye protection.

We also are having fun trying to turn a pigs ear into a silk purse. Trying to get a sweet Inland to shoot better. Going down the same path. Slightly larger diameter coated bullets. Wow!

Think safety. Go slow. Have fun. Save the targets with the 1 inch ragged hole at 100 yards. Bragging rights. :)
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
176 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2018 :  6:32:46 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks HB of CJ. Good info, and love the phrase turning a pigs ear into a silk purse. That sizes it up well, and I do feel that a combo can be reached for max accuracy per rifle. I have 3 carbines, and the love - hate ammo shows up well. What is good for one, is not for the other.
I'm just doing one at a time since my memory does not hold well when I take more than one to the range.
Mostly when I forget to take pen and paper. So I just focus on one at a time. Get it liking a reload, then move on. The one I'm playing with is my Universal. I have no clue if it has that slight taper you mentioned in the barrel.
I am getting some soot on the casing. It's not bad, but is present and a little more than I like to see.
I've thought about increasing the load a little. I'm at 10.5 with Acc No 9 pushing 1740 FPS.
This is with the 115 grain .309 coated lead bullet with gas check. I also ran a test with IMR 4227 at 12.5 on the powder. 1650 FPS with that load. Rumor? Lead loads should be less for FPS? 1600 FPS? Rumor or truth?
I'm gonna try and send pics. Maybe??? These were done at 75yds. Me and the sandbags. Targets are 8" and I can't even see the red dot at 75yds.



First one is the Acc #9 the next was IMR 4227
Fairly happy with both and can work with either. Or leave them alone?
Question is, and everyone is going to have a different idea or opinion.
FPS on 115 grain lead bullet.
Bayou Bullets give no specs other than load to recommended. With Lee, the max is 11.2 at 1834 FPS.
Min is 10.0 and I'm at 10.5 with 1740 FPS.
This is Acc #9 info. I'm pretty happy since nothing is done with a store bought rest. Just me and sand bags as said. Picking up brass every five shots because some have 2 or 3 reloads on them. Try to keep separate, plus after each shot, I would stop and glass it.
Once again the brain dead reading of brass recovery --- this is the process to follow. (keep separate)
Thanks again, hope the pics come through. Forgot to say. I did three other targets that day. All with FMJ
Two different shelf, one reload. They were all over the place.
My Inland and Quality Hardware do fine with FMJ. The Universal likes a tighter fit I assume?
It just does not target well at all with FMJ.
Many thanks, and love input.
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jimb16
Moderator



USA
3122 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2018 :  6:57:30 PM  Show Profile Send jimb16 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is no simple truth on how fast a "lead" bullet should be pushed. The answer lies with the exact composition/hardness of the bullet. Using standard wheel weights, 1600-1650 fps is about the top if you want to avoid leading. Add 5% tin and you can up that to 1700 fps. Add 10% linotype and you've pushed the envelope up to 1800 fps. A softer metal can be pushed to 1800 fps if it is poly-coated. The cast bullet should always be at least .001 over the groove diameter. For poly coats (and I do my own) I normally go .002 over. Better accuracy can also be gotten through some "adjustments" to the carbine. Make sure the recoil plate holds the action tight enough that the barrel is held about 1/2 inch above the barrel channel at the front of the stock. Make sure that the barrel band is snug on the barrel. With an early band a thin brass shim can be used to tighten up the fit. These two adjustments can make a huge difference in the accuracy of a carbine. I tested 24 carbines with various amounts of barrel wear for accuracy. I made sure that all properly fit the stocks before testing. There was very little difference in accuracy until I got to barrels with wear in excess of 5 and even then they all met the minimum accuracy of factory acceptance until the wear reached 6+. Action'barrel to stock fit is far more important than barrel wear when it comes to carbine accuracy. BTW soot/powder residue on the cases is simply an indication of low cartridge pressures. It is common with cast bullet loads. A faster powder will generate higher chamber pressure without increasing velocity and normally will expand cases fast enough to stop the "sooting" problem.

OGCA Lifer,NRA Life member, son of a 325th GIR Glider Rider

Edited by - jimb16 on 05/29/2018 7:01:47 PM
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
176 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2018 :  8:12:43 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well that is way over my head, laughing -- but cool. I have so much to learn. I really don't plan on casting my own bullets but still love the info.
This link has some info on what I'm using. Sale talk, I'm sure, but maybe you can gain a little from it.
You must be logged in to see this link.
Once again, the one I'm playing with now is the Universal carbine. It's set up proper enough I think. Since the conversion of trigger assembly. It required a different stock. M-2 post war. The recoil fit is good.
1/4" travel from barrel to rest in the channel. 1/2" seems excessive? But I'm still learning big time.
The band is what it is. Universal made, but will add. Although the outer barrel diameter is different and the bayonet style USGI will not fit proper. It does have an extended sleeve on it. Which is good. Good on that end for what it's worth. It's not the longer bayonet band, and not the short. It meets in the middle of both.
With that said. I'm pretty comfortable with the fit.
As Tuna said: I'm jousting against windmills. I over think things.
If my link is good and you can get info from that. Then I would like to hear back.
I want to try H110, but then that's starting over. Not afraid too. Just don't have it, and still playing with the two powders I have. All about budget.
No mention was made of my targets. I myself was happy enough. No real rest, just sand bags for the elbow and bad eyes.


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Tuna
Moderator



3265 Posts

Posted - 05/30/2018 :  11:10:27 AM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Accurate #9 is basically H-110. In fact I get a tad better accuracy with the #9. As for cleaning damaging the muzzle. It's not the bore brushes. It's the metal steel rods that caused all the damage.
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jimb16
Moderator



USA
3122 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2018 :  6:28:42 PM  Show Profile Send jimb16 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just remember this,,,,,every firearm is a rule unto itself! What works for one may not work for any other. I personally get my best accuracy with IMR 4227. If Tuna likes #9 in his carbine/s, then that is what he should be using.Take any info we give you as something that works for us, but may or may not work for you. And for many situations, there may be several correct answers. It depends of a whole lot of variables. That is what makes it so challenging. Have fun and don't get too frustrated! *LOL*

OGCA Lifer,NRA Life member, son of a 325th GIR Glider Rider
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
176 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2018 :  7:24:14 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well said, and that's what I'm learning. I was doing loads and taking my 3 carbines to the range. It just got frustrating, and like I said, once I left my note pad at home.
One at a time works for this old man. It is a fun challenge indeed.
I reordered some more Bayou today. Decided to stay with the .309 diameter. It would just be another question at the end. Was it the powder, or the bullet? One step at a time, never make two changes at once.
Great info from all you forum friends. Thanks again....
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