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boomer656
Greenhorn Member


USA
42 Posts

Posted - 02/23/2018 :  4:06:44 PM  Show Profile Send boomer656 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This carbine



has four markings on the stock that I've found. Two of seem to be straight forward. The Ordnance cartouche (right side of stock butt) and the Underwood rebuild cartouche (left side of stock butt).






There are two marks that I need help with. There is a C stamped into the bottom of the pistol grip, and there is a C stamped into the bridge at the front of the trigger housing.





Also, there are no marks I can see in the sling well. As always, any help would be appreciated.


Edited by - boomer656 on 02/23/2018 4:07:54 PM

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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1047 Posts

Posted - 02/23/2018 :  6:00:17 PM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Your stock appears to have a squarish cross section which is characteristic of Winchester. Also, the Ordinance cartouche looks like a late Winchester as well. I am not familiar with the other "C" markings so I hope others will chime in with their opinions. Perhaps in the meantime you could post a closeup picture of the stock forearm that will help confirm (or debunk) my observations. If it is a Winchester stock there should be an almost imperceptible "W" stamped in the sling well. Often this "W" is completely obliterated by the normal wear that occurs over 70+ years of use. Here's an example.


JackP

Edited by - Jackp on 02/23/2018 6:12:47 PM
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1047 Posts

Posted - 02/23/2018 :  8:19:28 PM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Boomer656, I found an image of a Winchester stock that really shows the squarish characteristic I mentioned earlier. This stock looks unused whereas yours appears to be more worn.



JackP
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boomer656
Greenhorn Member



USA
42 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2018 :  09:57:58 AM  Show Profile Send boomer656 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jackp

Your stock appears to have a squarish cross section which is characteristic of Winchester. Also, the Ordinance cartouche looks like a late Winchester as well. I am not familiar with the other "C" markings so I hope others will chime in with their opinions. Perhaps in the meantime you could post a closeup picture of the stock forearm that will help confirm (or debunk) my observations. If it is a Winchester stock there should be an almost imperceptible "W" stamped in the sling well. Often this "W" is completely obliterated by the normal wear that occurs over 70+ years of use. Here's an example.




Jack, I gave the sling well a close look when I first got the rifle and again this morning after reading your post. I even pulled a magnifying glass. Nothing to be seen.



As with the barrel markings, I thought the camera might reveal things that these old eyes can't see, so I took a digital look. And what to my wondering eyes did appear .....



Thanks for sharing your knowledge and insights.

Roy


Edited by - boomer656 on 02/24/2018 10:00:30 AM
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1047 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2018 :  11:08:38 AM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now you can see why this hobby is so much fun. There's always a mystery that can be solved if you are persistent enough. If you haven't already discovered it, I recommend you get Craig Riesch's book "U.S. M1 Carbines, Wartime Production", 7th edition. It's a great starting place to discover many of the secrets of your carbine. There are over 50 components in your carbine. So far we have just scratched the surface on 2. I still want to know what the "C" is about. The one on the receiver bridge is where one would usually find a "W" (for Winchester). The one on the heel of the pistol grip is probably an armory mark, but who knows for sure. Also, there's the mark on your gas cylinder that still remains unidentified.

JackP
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boomer656
Greenhorn Member



USA
42 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2018 :  1:53:13 PM  Show Profile Send boomer656 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jackp

Now you can see why this hobby is so much fun. There's always a mystery that can be solved if you are persistent enough. If you haven't already discovered it, I recommend you get Craig Riesch's book "U.S. M1 Carbines, Wartime Production", 7th edition. It's a great starting place to discover many of the secrets of your carbine. There are over 50 components in your carbine. So far we have just scratched the surface on 2. I still want to know what the "C" is about. The one on the receiver bridge is where one would usually find a "W" (for Winchester). The one on the heel of the pistol grip is probably an armory mark, but who knows for sure. Also, there's the mark on your gas cylinder that still remains unidentified.



I've seen that book mentioned several times in the short period I've been involved with this... so, it's been added to the growing list of things I "need" to get . There is probably a rule somewhere that states the final cost of any hobby is several times the cost the initial buy in.

I did make notes of all the visible/obvious markings when I field stripped it. They included marks for Standard Products, Winchester, Inland, IBM and a couple more that, for now, remain unknown.
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Tuna
Moderator



3254 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2018 :  10:20:04 AM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not unusual for Winchester stocks to be marked on the bridge. Inspector marks is what they are considered to be. Many times the inside of the right side is also stamped with a number or letter.
The C on the bottom of the hand grip could be almost anything but not likely from the factory.
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boomer656
Greenhorn Member



USA
42 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2018 :  11:08:04 AM  Show Profile Send boomer656 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tuna

Not unusual for Winchester stocks to be marked on the bridge. Inspector marks is what they are considered to be. Many times the inside of the right side is also stamped with a number or letter.
The C on the bottom of the hand grip could be almost anything but not likely from the factory.



Thanks for the info.
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painter777
Starting Member



USA
24 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2018 :  8:02:27 PM  Show Profile Send painter777 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tuna

Not unusual for Winchester stocks to be marked on the bridge. Inspector marks is what they are considered to be. Many times the inside of the right side is also stamped with a number or letter.
The C on the bottom of the hand grip could be almost anything but not likely from the factory.



Tuna pretty much nailed it.
And maybe JimB can vouch for me...... So here goes:
Often the 'Wood Bridge' can have up to a 3 digit number or letters stamped on it, and the right side ledge can often be found number or letter stamped. These are thought to be a Inspector, Shift or bench location marking. WRA had a distinctive milling style inside the stocks op slide channel that shows they used a less aggressive cutter head than some other makers. Similar milling out style inside the slingwells. If a WRA stock hasn't been sanded to death... feel for a divet on the underside just a couple inches forward of the trigger housing/magazine opening. You'll also feel this indent along both sides of the stock, up and around from the bottom divet. Also look/feel for that raised portion of wood where the recoil plate screws' escutheon nut is.
There's more to it than a Flat bottom, Thick pistol grip and angle/taper at the front of the slingwell, to properly ID a true WRA made stock.

There are similar give aways to how WRA milled their Hand guards that can help you properly ID them without markings.

Nice Stock BTW
Cheers,
Charlie-Painter777
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boomer656
Greenhorn Member



USA
42 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2018 :  10:02:09 AM  Show Profile Send boomer656 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by painter777

quote:
Originally posted by Tuna

Not unusual for Winchester stocks to be marked on the bridge. Inspector marks is what they are considered to be. Many times the inside of the right side is also stamped with a number or letter.
The C on the bottom of the hand grip could be almost anything but not likely from the factory.



Tuna pretty much nailed it.
And maybe JimB can vouch for me...... So here goes:
Often the 'Wood Bridge' can have up to a 3 digit number or letters stamped on it, and the right side ledge can often be found number or letter stamped. These are thought to be a Inspector, Shift or bench location marking. WRA had a distinctive milling style inside the stocks op slide channel that shows they used a less aggressive cutter head than some other makers. Similar milling out style inside the slingwells. If a WRA stock hasn't been sanded to death... feel for a divet on the underside just a couple inches forward of the trigger housing/magazine opening. You'll also feel this indent along both sides of the stock, up and around from the bottom divet. Also look/feel for that raised portion of wood where the recoil plate screws' escutheon nut is.
There's more to it than a Flat bottom, Thick pistol grip and angle/taper at the front of the slingwell, to properly ID a true WRA made stock.

There are similar give aways to how WRA milled their Hand guards that can help you properly ID them without markings.


Nice Stock BTW
Cheers,
Charlie-Painter777



Yep - I can feel the divot about 1 1/2" in front of the magazine opening, just ahead of the front end of the receiver. I can also feel that the start of that divot corresponds to the location where the sides of the stock begin to taper off toward the front of the stock. Seems like it drops off quickly for a 1/2 inch or so and then goes to a much slower taper.

I'm having a little less luck with the raised area you describe around the escutcheon nut. I'm not sure that what I'm feeling on this stock is due to the way the stock was milled or due to a combination of small gouges and the taper of the stock to the pistol grip.

I'll take a closer look at the milling inside the stock the next time I have it apart.

This is all great info. Thanks for sharing it.
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Tuna
Moderator



3254 Posts

Posted - 03/17/2018 :  09:34:39 AM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Joe, I mean Charlie,(inside joke),is a specialist on carbine wood. Why he can almost tell which tree a stock came from. But he really is very good with the stocks. Memory? Not so much but he is getting better.lol
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jimb16
Moderator



USA
3116 Posts

Posted - 03/18/2018 :  7:58:56 PM  Show Profile Send jimb16 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The odd thing is that the marks can be inconsistent. Some will have them and some don't, Remember, Winchester change their marking methods at least 4 times during production. I have a late winchester stock that I plan on putting up for sale soon that has two different types of W in the sling bevel; one typical wide W and the other a tall W much like you see on White Sewing Machine hammers!

OGCA Lifer,NRA Life member, son of a 325th GIR Glider Rider
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boomer656
Greenhorn Member



USA
42 Posts

Posted - 03/21/2018 :  08:45:35 AM  Show Profile Send boomer656 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yesterday I decided it was time to clean some of the surface dirt (diluted Murphys) off the stock. Prep for that included removing the buttplate - which was the first time I've had that piece off. I was surprised to see 3 holes - the buttplate screw hole and then centerline top and bottom. They're about 7/8 inch deep. At first I thought there may have been a buttplate with two screws on the rifle at some point, but I didn't find any references showing that such a buttplate existed.

Were these possibly used in some sort of support when the stock was being milled, or is there something else going on?
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Tuna
Moderator



3254 Posts

Posted - 03/21/2018 :  6:55:22 PM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Typical of a Winchester stock to have the three holes under the butt plate and yes the two on top and bottom of the screw hole were used in the making of the stock.
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boomer656
Greenhorn Member



USA
42 Posts

Posted - 03/21/2018 :  8:54:03 PM  Show Profile Send boomer656 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tuna

Typical of a Winchester stock to have the three holes under the butt plate and yes the two on top and bottom of the screw hole were used in the making of the stock.


Thanks!
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jimb16
Moderator



USA
3116 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2018 :  11:44:09 AM  Show Profile Send jimb16 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The extra holes were there for mounting it a jig for the stock turning machine, similar to a lathe. I've never seen a real Winchester stock that didn't have the 3 holes.

OGCA Lifer,NRA Life member, son of a 325th GIR Glider Rider
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