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WillieH
Starting Member


USA
8 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2017 :  9:01:38 PM  Show Profile Send WillieH a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The gun shop owner told me to go into the back room to look at a rifle they just bought from a long time customer. I'm not interested in military type rifles but I thought the folding stock was unique. The shop owner remembers seeing this gun over 40 years ago when it was inherited by the son from his father. The gun was wrapped in a blanket and kept in a drawer. The gun appears to be very lightly used and in very good shape.

I usually do research before buying, but this time I bought first. While I'm learning about these carbines, I thought I'd show the experts a few photos to get your thoughts. I did detail strip the gun, cleaned the cosmoline out of the trigger assembly and examined the parts.

The s/n is 5264xxx. barrel 6/44, bottom of grip is a RI over a 3, top of the barrel is a P (covered by the bayonet mount). Inside the 4 rivet handguard is OI and also OI inside the stock cavity.

I'd appreciate any info on this gun. I have a M1 Carbine reference guide and starting to ID parts, types, etc.

Here's a few pics and I'd be happy to take more if anyone is interested in a particular detail.










Edited by - WillieH on 10/13/2017 9:03:51 PM

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shadycon
Veteran Member



USA
1370 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2017 :  07:49:15 AM  Show Profile Send shadycon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All I can say is "NICE"...............

M1's-R-FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!
TSMG's-R-MORE-FUN!!!!!
ENJOY LIFE & HAVE FUN!!
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WillieH
Starting Member



USA
8 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2017 :  08:38:14 AM  Show Profile Send WillieH a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks. I'm still verifing parts, types, serial numbers and markings, but I may have stumbled on an original M1A1.
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Tuna
Moderator



3229 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2017 :  10:38:04 AM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
An M1A1? yes it is. But it has been through a rebuild and that is when it received the updated parts post war. But it is a nice M1A1. What did you pay for it if one may ask?
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WillieH
Starting Member



USA
8 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2017 :  12:44:44 PM  Show Profile Send WillieH a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the info. How did you determine it was rebuilt? I've been going through a reference guide and so far all the parts are correct for a late version.

Edited by - WillieH on 10/14/2017 3:10:08 PM
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1011 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2017 :  4:35:46 PM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The flip safety wasn't introduced until 1945. Your carbine would have originally had a push safety. Although it wasn't required that they upgrade the safety during a rebuild, it could have been done anyway. Reportedly the mag release was mistaken for the push safety in the heat of combat and the magazine inadvertently dropped when the soldier thought he was disengaging the safety, so I can see why it would have been changed. Also, the type 3 barrel band wasn't used until late 1944. I believe your carbine was made in early to mid 1944 and thus would have originally had a Type 2 barrel band (no bayonet lug). It too would have been replaced during a field upgrade.

What reference guide are you using?

JackP

Edited by - Jackp on 10/14/2017 4:36:56 PM
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hunterman1
Advanced Member



183 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2017 :  8:08:28 PM  Show Profile Send hunterman1 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The "P" on the barrel is beneath the current barrel band. Since the "P" was added after barrel band was installed, a different (shorter) barrel band (as Jack says, probably a Type 2) was in place when the barrel was "proofed".

A very nice find, nonetheless. Congratulations.

Edited by - hunterman1 on 10/14/2017 8:09:35 PM
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WillieH
Starting Member



USA
8 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2017 :  06:16:29 AM  Show Profile Send WillieH a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jackp

The flip safety wasn't introduced until 1945. Your carbine would have originally had a push safety. Although it wasn't required that they upgrade the safety during a rebuild, it could have been done anyway. Reportedly the mag release was mistaken for the push safety in the heat of combat and the magazine inadvertently dropped when the soldier thought he was disengaging the safety, so I can see why it would have been changed. Also, the type 3 barrel band wasn't used until late 1944. I believe your carbine was made in early to mid 1944 and thus would have originally had a Type 2 barrel band (no bayonet lug). It too would have been replaced during a field upgrade.

What reference guide are you using?



Thanks for your post, I appreciate your knowledge. I'm new to these guns and learning the intricacies of the variations. At first I was using the website You must be logged in to see this link. that shows the pic below is Inland's 2nd production run (May-44 thru Dec-44) of what looks a close match to the M1A1 I bought. It has the flip safety and bayonet mount.


I have received the U.S. M1 Carbines, Wartime Production 7th ed. by Riesch. I'm beginning to use this as a primary guide. I want to learn more about these guns and make my Carbine correct.


Edited by - WillieH on 10/15/2017 06:32:48 AM
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WillieH
Starting Member



USA
8 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2017 :  06:29:03 AM  Show Profile Send WillieH a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hunterman1

The "P" on the barrel is beneath the current barrel band. Since the "P" was added after barrel band was installed, a different (shorter) barrel band (as Jack says, probably a Type 2) was in place when the barrel was "proofed".

A very nice find, nonetheless. Congratulations.



Thanks. These guns are like wine, with all the variations, vintage years subtle details.

I'll most likely replace any non period items. Any suggestions as where to get authentic parts and components?
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Tuna
Moderator



3229 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2017 :  8:35:24 PM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Stay away from Riverbank out on the left coast. Lets just say he has more brand new made in China original parts then anyone else. If you are not sure about a part then post a link to it or a photo of it and the people here will help you with it as being real or a fake as there are more fake parts out there then real ones now. And remember parts for carbines are serial number dependent so there were a lot of changes as production continued. You can check on Ebay and Gun Broker for parts or even ask for them here on the want to buy list.
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jimb16
Moderator



USA
3101 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2017 :  08:24:38 AM  Show Profile Send jimb16 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure that I would change anything on it. It is a correct rebuild as it is. After WWII the military upgraded many of these and it appears to be a "correct" carbine as it is. Changing parts to the earlier configuration won't make it an more original, just more "as manufactured".

OGCA Lifer,NRA Life member, son of a 325th GIR Glider Rider
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cali201
Senior Member



USA
710 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2017 :  05:55:43 AM  Show Profile Send cali201 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
you can change parts but more then likely there will be marks where you have done this. If you remove the type III barrel band there probably will be, what we call, a shadow. The area under where the long part of the band once sat will be a lighter color then the rest of the barrel. If you remove the adjustable sight and put on a flip there probably will be tell tale stake marks. Nothing wrong with it as it sits, it is part of it's history.
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1011 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2017 :  09:19:55 AM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The only thing I would consider changing is the safety, just because for me it's more convenient to use a push safety than a flip safety. Maybe not so for a leftie. It's an easy change and push safeties are cheap. Just be sure to save the flip safety so you could put it back the way you got it if you ever part with the carbine.

JackP
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1011 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2017 :  09:38:34 AM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I want to add a comment. Both reference guides you mentioned (Riesch's book and the USCarbinecal30.com web site) are excellent. However, none are perfect. You got lucky and found one of the few anomaly's on the carbine web site. Elsewhere on that web site the author notes the correct date of introduction of the flip safety vs the dates of manufacture of the 2nd run of M1A1's. You can continue to depend on 99 percent of the information contained in these specific resources. One other that I would recommend is the "War Baby" series of reference books by Larry Ruth. They are a bit pricey but in my opinion worth the cost.

JackP

Edited by - Jackp on 10/18/2017 09:39:59 AM
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WillieH
Starting Member



USA
8 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2017 :  4:07:16 PM  Show Profile Send WillieH a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I appreciate the comments. After completing the M1 Carbine data sheet- You must be logged in to see this link. it appears the M1A1 is short few parts from being orginially correct. I've found a type II barrel band, type V slide and type III push safety to replace the parts from the rebuild.
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1011 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2017 :  6:33:57 PM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Willie,

I go along with replacing the safety and slide. The carbine will eject more reliably with the Type 5 slide. However, my recommendation would be to not replace the barrel band because, as Cali noted, it may be obvious that it's been replaced. Also, the carbine may not be as accurate with the shorter barrel band. The extra length of the bayonet lug tends to hold the barrel more securely. Properly removing and reinstalling the front sight (in order to replace the barrel band) requires a special tool. It's not expensive but there's always the possibility of scratching up the barrel and/or the sight. Note that the sight pin is staked in place and disturbing that staking will be noticeable. I know, I've tried it. I assume you have already found out how costly a correct Type 2 barrel band is. If you haven't already bought one, the money saved could buy you a lot of ammo.

You have a very nice example of a 2nd production M1A1. Thanks again for sharing with us.

JackP
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WillieH
Starting Member



USA
8 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2017 :  05:52:46 AM  Show Profile Send WillieH a Private Message  Reply with Quote
JackP,

Thanks again, your concerns are well noted.
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WillieH
Starting Member



USA
8 Posts

Posted - 11/04/2017 :  5:44:11 PM  Show Profile Send WillieH a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've been through the gun using the Riesch book, completed a data sheet and best as I can determine the M1A1 is now correct for a 1944 Inland 2nd production run. Unless I missed something, the M1A1 just required a type III push button safety, type V slide, and type II barrel band. The safety is unmarked, the slide is stamped inside with a PI underlined and the barrel band has two vertical // marks on the left side.

I appreciate the comments and the info all of you provided, it was very useful. I'm winding this project down and if there's something I've missed please let me know.

BTW, if anyone is interested in front sight removal/install tools I'd be happy to loan them out for your thoughtful help.

















Edited by - WillieH on 11/04/2017 5:48:56 PM
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