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jski
Junior Member


54 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2017 :  12:48:12 AM  Show Profile Send jski a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As a proud owner of an historic M1 Carbine, an AutoOrdinance reproduction M1 Carbine, and a late model Universal M1 Carbine, I think it's time to give ole Abe Seiderman his due as a contributor to the M1 Carbine heritage.

Any opinions?

*In 1968 Abe Seiderman (You must be logged in to see this link.) radically redesigned the M1 Carbine, including the slide, gas chamber, etc. An excellent site for this is: You must be logged in to see this link.. The result is probably the only significant rethink of the original Winchester design.

Edited by - jski on 05/02/2017 01:27:43 AM

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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
323 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2017 :  07:57:20 AM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suppose it was innovative, but I'd suspect most people here would not consider the redesign as any improvement, only a gimmick. The carbine never needed to be "re-thunk". Opinions were solicited and everybody has one. The early Universals were/are seemingly good guns and were stuffed with USGI parts. The later generations are generally not well thought of, select-fire or not.
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Tuna
Moderator



3229 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2017 :  08:25:57 AM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Too bad he did as it's what led to the down fall of Universal carbines to junk status down the road.
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jski
Junior Member



54 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2017 :  11:31:47 PM  Show Profile Send jski a Private Message  Reply with Quote
1st, I knew this proposal would be tantamount to heresy ... especially here.

2nd, no one can deny that the Winchester designed M1 Carbine is a classic, almost a work of art. But like the .45 Colt SAA, a rethink of the original can be useful. Think Blackhawk.

3rd, I was just suggesting that the 1968 Abe Seiderman rethink of the original 1941 Winchester design is a worthy contribution.
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BEYU
Advanced Member



USA
281 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2017 :  10:34:26 AM  Show Profile Send BEYU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Your idea does have it's merits. Especially if it becomes a place where issues of safety with the later production models were to be discussed.

It might serve to spare some owners/buyers from a tragic or expensive accident. With the present shortage of USGI carbines, the commercial versions are bound to become more attractive (wrongly or not) to buyers.

At present, it comes up on a case by case basis.

I will admit that as the proud owner on a 1943 Underwood mix-master, I must plead guilty to being a bit dismissive of Universals for reasons well known by M1 Carbine fans and owners.

You know, there already is a place provided specifically for commercial carbines here at the Forum. It includes all the commercials.

Perhaps it could be argued that the Universals have enough problems so as to need its own chat room?

BEYU

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

- Benj. Franklin

Edited by - BEYU on 05/03/2017 10:40:41 AM
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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
323 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2017 :  12:27:12 PM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All of us don't bash the commercial carbines. I have two, an Iver Johnson 9MM of which only some 2100 were made and a generation I Universal. Both of which shoot every bit as good as my Underwood and I am confident they will continue working and shooting. I just can't support honoring an individual that made design changes to an already pretty-good weapon which rendered it problematic and possibly unsafe.
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Tuna
Moderator



3229 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2017 :  7:13:48 PM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jski, Just look at the AO carbines of today. Rated as 100% JUNK just like the so called New Inlands and that goes along with the mid to late Universal production. The later made, the more dangerous they became. They give a bad reputation to other commercial carbines that were well made.
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cali201
Senior Member



USA
710 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2017 :  05:08:55 AM  Show Profile Send cali201 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"if it ain't broke, don't fix it" 'Nuff said

Edited by - cali201 on 05/04/2017 05:09:17 AM
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COSteve
Junior Member



USA
83 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2017 :  10:56:06 AM  Show Profile Send COSteve a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Contrary to Tuna's opinion, I actually have one of the modern commercial carbines.

As the owner of a '43 NPM for over 40 years, I've watched the quality of available GI carbines go down while the quality of commercial carbines go up. As my NPM is in pristine shape and worth a ton of $$, I retired it to pass on to my son and went looking for a shooter. I was appalled at the condition for the high price of GI models and Universals so I gave the Auto Ordnance carbines a hard look.

After some thought, in early 2012, I picked up a NIB AO and have been pleasantly surprised at it reliability and accuracy. All I added was a Type II adjustable rear sight but other than some AIM Korean mags and a sling, all I've done to it is shot it; some 3,000+ of my handloaded rds and loved every minute of it. It's performed flawlessly for both me and the young people we train basic firearms to at our range.

Steve

“Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.” - Confucius

Edited by - COSteve on 05/04/2017 11:00:44 AM
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Tuna
Moderator



3229 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2017 :  6:56:21 PM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Steve consider yourself very lucky indeed if your AO performs as it should. If you buy a new one today it is almost a guaranteed problem waiting to happen. The same as the new Inland's which are really AO carbines with a different name as so many of the parts are made for them by AO. But your luckier then many. Like the guy who about a year ago here had a new AO that failed to feed and failed to extract. Sent it back to the factory, got it back as being all fix and turned out that nothing had been done to it. He replaced the magazine catch with a new USGI catch. Still had a problem so changed to a new magazines not AO's and it would feed fine but not extract. So he replaced the extractor in the bolt with a new USGI extractor assembly and it worked fine. But the thing is why should he have to do all of this with a new out of the box rifle that was fixed and returned to him but was not repaired. The same with the new Inlands? Your paying good money for these and what are you getting? If you want a good commercial carbine then get a good used Plainfield. So what commercial carbines have been going up in quality? Rock-Ola, yes! Fulton Armory, yes but you get what you pay for with them. I wish you well with your AO and hope it continues to deliver all of what you want it to. Now these are my opinions.
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jlwilliams
Junior Member



USA
78 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2017 :  9:30:56 PM  Show Profile Send jlwilliams a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A Universal subforum makes sense. They are part of the Carbine world and they have their own unique issues. There should be a place for Universal owners to discuss their Carbines.

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BEYU
Advanced Member



USA
281 Posts

Posted - 05/12/2017 :  12:08:39 PM  Show Profile Send BEYU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perhaps the best reason for it would be the safety issues.

If it could save someone his fingers or eyesight, it would be worth it...

(Just sayin'... I am a disinterested party since I do not own a commercial carbine and have no such hankerin'!)

BEYU

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

- Benj. Franklin
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jimb16
Moderator



USA
3101 Posts

Posted - 05/12/2017 :  6:57:34 PM  Show Profile Send jimb16 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We mods do not have the ability to add fora. Can't help you on that one.

OGCA Lifer,NRA Life member, son of a 325th GIR Glider Rider
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