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Filroy77
Starting Member



USA
16 Posts

Posted - 07/22/2017 :  07:42:25 AM  Show Profile Send Filroy77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you americanboy, PM inbound.

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Tuna
Moderator



3191 Posts

Posted - 07/22/2017 :  12:28:55 PM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What make carbine is this? Is it a commercially made one like Universal? The pictures of the bolt show a big problem with your carbine. Do not continue you shoot it as your bolt is damaged. And the recesses where the bolt locks up may also have damage.
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Filroy77
Starting Member



USA
16 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2017 :  10:05:17 AM  Show Profile Send Filroy77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I do see the softness of the material used to manufacture the bolt. It seems that there are so many areas on the bolt that are subjected to pounding that it could be a combination of material loss has contributed to the headspace issue. Would it be a bad idea to build up the material on the lugs to an acceptable level? Not that I have the welding equipment to accomplish that but I have a friend that could add some material. Short of that, the weapon has been rendered useless and destined for sale as a parts donor.
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Tuna
Moderator



3191 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2017 :  10:20:57 AM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The bolt is NOT useable. You could part it out but the body is trashed and no welding will save it. The heat treatment would need to be redone if anything was welded on it. So again I ask who made this carbine please?
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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
301 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2017 :  11:37:47 AM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
National Ordinance I believe, but we don't know the SN, so can't know the date of manufacture.
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Filroy77
Starting Member



USA
16 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2017 :  5:43:40 PM  Show Profile Send Filroy77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes National Ordnance.

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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
301 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2017 :  5:53:07 PM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Looks like the SN puts it in the first 1/3. I think they manufactured around 50,000. Go to uscarbinecal30.com. Follow the menu to Commercial Carbines, then Companies and Carbines.....and hit the brass case on that list to select National Ordinance. It's worth a read.
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Tuna
Moderator



3191 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2017 :  09:55:54 AM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now knowing that it's a National Ordnance I am not surprised there are problems with the barrel and action. Check to see if your barrel is 4 lands and groves or that it's 2 lands and groves. You see National Ordnance ran out of barrels early on and used 1903 WW2 barrels cut down and then modified to use on the carbines. By serial number this carbine is in the 4th group. By then they were making all there own parts. Receivers were a big problem for National. They were made in the US and were made overseas with those being considered to be soft. They at one point even used scraped and cut USGI receivers welded together. If none of the parts inside are marked which is normal for National then you might consider just destroying it all as many of the internal parts are suspect.
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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
301 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2017 :  4:53:42 PM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I noticed the bolt had a punch-mark on it where you would normally find one on a war-era or post-war contract bolt. I was not able to make out any lug marking. I understand that punch-mark was placed there after test firing the carbine it was in, or maybe a hardness test. I have three commercial bolts and none bear the punch-mark. Is it possible the bolt pictured here was a post-war contracted bolt? I do have an Underwood war-era round bolt that was stamped .u. by the left lug on the bolt body and not the lug face. How strange is that?
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Filroy77
Starting Member



USA
16 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2017 :  6:39:19 PM  Show Profile Send Filroy77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Underwood bolt. I counted 12 lands at the end of the barrel.


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Filroy77
Starting Member



USA
16 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2017 :  6:42:20 PM  Show Profile Send Filroy77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
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Tuna
Moderator



3191 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2017 :  9:32:05 PM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If the bolt has a drain hole in the bottom of it then its an Underwood bolt post WW2 and around 1948 or later. But your bolt is not in good shape and I think you will have damage to the receiver to.
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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
301 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2017 :  05:20:09 AM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So....we do see some USGI parts. Underwood bolt and an Inland firing pin. There could possibly be some other GI goodies in the trigger housing? From the looks of what I see, I think we have a gun that has been really...really fired. I think I have noticed the lug recesses in the receiver have been pretty-well beat-up. It doesn't seem to be a case of bashed commercial internals, but rather a receiver bashed by good USGI internals. The receiver is surely damaged and stretched beyond use. 12-land barrels were common on commercial carbines and I know Universal used them.
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Tuna
Moderator



3191 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2017 :  12:07:44 PM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When one sees a firing pin damaged like that it is a sure sign that not only is the receiver and bolt gone but there could be damage to the hammer to. Would have to take a close look at it to tell. Same goes for the rest of the trigger components too as they all interlock and work together.
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Filroy77
Starting Member



USA
16 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2017 :  5:59:20 PM  Show Profile Send Filroy77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It'll make a fine club during the zombie apocalypse.

Edited by - Filroy77 on 07/25/2017 6:00:23 PM
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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
301 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2017 :  06:19:08 AM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you wanted to bother with parting it out, some of the parts may be worthy of selling. We haven't seen the wood, the slide or trigger-housing and internals. Maybe sell it off and keep the barreled receiver as a club. Everything except the receiver can be sold without involving an FFL, or paying serious shipping cost.
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Filroy77
Starting Member



USA
16 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2017 :  9:51:19 PM  Show Profile Send Filroy77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll see if I can work up some pics of the other parts.
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
111 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2017 :  7:15:22 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello again: I have read this great 2 page topic from head to toe.
You might remember in some of my other posts concerning the upgrade in my mind on my Universal gen 2. Early to mid production of the gen 2.
#165165
I got rid of the complete aluminum trigger housing, replaced it with a complete Inland type 3, changed the stock, and all is actually running well. Shot it today before my next step with 4 different mags and no problems.
My next step is the bolt replacement, so I would have an evenly matched hardened combo. It is also an Inland round bolt with IO stamped.
I was expecting fear of sloppy head space. Instead I got just the opposite.
The bolt closes with the 1.290, and 1.291 with just some finger pressure. This is with bolt stripped, and I am using scotch tape to gauge the measurements.
I was hoping for more of a 1.293?
Is this border line, or acceptable?
I don't have any other bolts to try, and at the price of them, I can't afford to just keep shopping.
The Universal bolt had the same head space with no problems, but I always wondered about it and always found myself peeking for bolt closer.
I just expected the old Inland would grant me just a little more slop.
Forgive me for even asking. But has anyone just took a small file to the back sides of the lugs to open up head space just a few thousands?
Just kinda looking for some idea's here.
Like run it, and eye each cycle till it all settles in with the harsh banging these guns take.
Or????
Thanks again to all. My Inland 1-44 is so awesome. This Universal has been great also, and no regrets on giving it a boost here and there. It gets the hand-me-downs from my Inland that I have up-graded.
So they move and don't just sit on the shelf.
Back to sloppy... it might be the wrong word. I have shot a few that friends own. USGI and Alpine. They rattle and such. But always work nicely also.
Would you yourself, rather have a tight M1, or one that had some rattle if I may use that wording? That .021 between go and field, seems like a scary number for indifference.
It might also be possible I'm just not getting the overall pic.




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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
301 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2017 :  08:45:21 AM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The original design does allow a lot of slop B4 it's deemed unsafe. The minimum case length is 1.28 and the field-gauge is 1.301 or thereabouts depending on who's gauge you use. Subtract the minimum from the maximum and you arrive at around .021, again depending on who's field-gauge you use. That is a lot of slop and would be nowhere near acceptable for a tight target or sporting gun. The gun was designed to shoot in extreme conditions, so it's meant to be loose and provides a lot of room for variations in cartridge manufacturing. Head-space does affect accuracy, but the carbine was never meant to be a tack-driver anyway.

The commercial carbines I have are all MUCH tighter. My gen-1 Universal no-go's at 1.291 and my IJ head-spaces at .002. Commercial ammo out of the box will have case lengths shorter than 1.290 and closer to 1.285-1.286. I will check the case-length on a fresh box of commercial to make sure I don't get a case longer than 1.290. I will surely check-n-trim every fired case as well prior to re-loading. There is not much need for concern over chambering a slightly long round in any USGI carbine I have ever owned...they are all loose. There is concern for chambering a long round in some of these commercial carbines.

BTW....my Underwood which no-go's at 1.296 (slightly out of spec. on a 1.295 no-go gauge) is by far the most accurate of the carbines I have.

I would not take a file to or machine any part of the bolt to loosen the gun up. Just keep your gun clean and be careful of long cases. A dirty tight gun may not close on a stray grain of sand or carbon build-up over a 1.290 round. There is much less concern when you're shooting case lengths of-or-around 1.285 or so.

Edited by - americanboy on 10/21/2017 08:51:59 AM
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
111 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2017 :  4:57:09 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks americanboy, I will go with the set up and just keep the eye on bolt closure for a while. Anytime I make a change, caution is the word of honor.
I also will check my new ammo for case length before use. Very good idea.
I don't reload, and never buy reloads.
The one thing I seem to get brain dead on, is the no go gauge at 1.296? Not understanding why that is even out there when the field gauge is 1.301, and most all seem to stand by that for reference.
Also would like to ask your thoughts on the two spring set ups. I know all of yours are probably the single.
I feel strongly on down sizing the spring tension, and it seems to be working just fine.
I have clipped my two coils down to what I feel is close to the single coil set up.
I myself just could not see a reason for the extra tension and stress on the undesired welded gas block and the known weak open slide.
I have heard Tuna mention problems with the stronger single spring, but it was just the mention of it.
My opinion is, stronger springs only cause problems, not fix them.
Can you give me a reason or suggestion per fault in my downsize on spring tension on the op rod?
Seems to be working just fine for me, but would like to understand the problems from a too weak of a spring?
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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
301 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2017 :  5:49:11 PM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First off, I am no gunsmith and don't pretend to be. I am just a normal older kid that has spent time fooling-around with guns since I was a younger kid.

If the action closes on a no-go gauge, it indicates the gun is worn and requires attention. Maybe not today at that very moment, but soon, like before it's taken into another battle. We don't know how bad things really are until it will close on a field-gauge. If it will close on a field-gauge, the weapon is deemed unsafe to fire. In military use, close on a no-go and you need to take it to the armorer, but if you're fighting that day...keep shooting. Close on a field-gauge and you don't even want to shoot it...pick up another weapon. Out here in the civilian world where lives may not be in danger, there is lots of shooting left in a carbine that may close on a no-go gauge. To me, it's important to know exactly where my carbine head-spaces. If it will not close on a gauge reading of 1.296 (which is longer than a standard 1.295 no-go)I know I still have .005 in wear to go before I reach a field-gauge condition of 1.301. In my mind...the no-go gauge of 1.295 in length gives me an indication that the gun is at/more than 1/2 shot-out...so-to-speak.

Any semi-auto rifle or handgun can be tuned by changing spring rates. You can adjust a gun for the loads you're shooting, or adjust your loads to the gun you're shooting. Often we hear about poor quality ammo that won't cycle the action. The fix is a more powerful (good quality) round. In reality, you could use a lighter loaded round and a less powerful spring...within reason. This gets more complicated when gas-operation enters the equation. You want a spring-rate that is just right. One that assist in cycling the action, but dosen't allow beating-up the gun. Springs will wear over time and use and you can bet that most carbines out there are operating at various spring-rates because of this.....and still working. You can play with things a little, but the designers of the gun considered what was required to make it function with the specified ammunition. More than likely, if you went too far with spring modification, the gun would stop working before you damaged anything.

With the dual-spring Universal, things may get a little more complicated. I was not in the room at the time, but I'm pretty sure the dual-spring system was employed to balance the stress on the action components. If you adjust one side, the other side will need any like adjustment.

Edited by - americanboy on 10/21/2017 6:18:32 PM
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Satanta
Advanced Member



USA
111 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2017 :  7:24:41 PM  Show Profile Send Satanta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Everything said makes very good sense to me. I also would call it tuning per ammo etc.
I for sure can speak that my Universal did not like Armscor ammo at all. Under powered by far per re-coil to other brands. Plus I had a primer come out once, causing a jam, and several were backing out. 1st and last time for me with that brand. Never a problem of sort since.
The balance of the dual springs also makes sense too me. I as a car mechanic, I always thought strange towards the single spring set up. But of course it has way more than proved itself worthy.
I did in fact clip both springs the same, several hundred rounds ago.
Off to the range in the next week.
The Inland bolt has the 3 cut ejector in it. I have one already, but never tried it. Figured what the heck.
Worst part is. I have the problem at hand of changing more than one thing at a time. Bad choice for the learn process.
Home rack finger pull test of 10 rounds twice done. All the same, but low ejection. Might be just fine under power, but I'm a lefty, so I may end up with a warm case tucked in the short armpit.
I ask about them in a past forum. I think you said you had one also and had yet to try.
I think it was Bonnie that said the change was more than likely due to the extra cost and trouble for 3 cuts.
Makes sense to me.
Once again, thanks.


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