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 Commercial Carbines
 Iver Johnson 9-MIL Carbine
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americanboy
Advanced Member


USA
363 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2016 :  08:12:48 AM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IMHO an M1 carbine in 9 x 19 would be a fun and economical shooter. Citadel offers one in a blow-back design, but I'd like to see a rebirth of the once advertised Iver Johnson in 9 Luger. Brochures are out there that indicates they produced one, but apparently in low numbers and obviously not very popular.

Anybody ever seen one?
I want one....

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Tuna
Moderator



3283 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2016 :  10:03:35 AM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The IJ G.I.9 was made in later production as the company was in Jacksonville AR. at the time. It was a modified M1 carbine and used a 20 round Hi-Power magazine. Seems that once the company was taken over by A.M.A Corp. that the G.I 9 carbine and development on two other 9mm carbines was dropped.
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jlwilliams
Junior Member



USA
78 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2016 :  2:56:35 PM  Show Profile Send jlwilliams a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've seen a couple turn up over the years. Like Tuna said, they got dropped because of the company changing hands, not because of any real problem with the gun.

If they had been commercially available for a longer time, they may have become popular. There is just no knowing what may have been.
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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
363 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2016 :  3:18:07 PM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Chiappa example is trying to fly, but I just can't accept one that vaguely resembles an M1 made in Italy. I think there could be some traction for a good commercial model chambered in 9 x 19 that is true to USGI form. The 9 generates pressures that enable it's reliable use in a gas-recoil operated system. IJ did it once, seems like that could be repeated. If I had a machine shop, a barrel-blank and a spare carbine...I'd have to try.
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Tuna
Moderator



3283 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2016 :  8:03:41 PM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are like 46 different rifle models now that shoot the 9mm. The vast majority are based on AR 15 rifles and the majority of them are blow back operated. Is there a market for one in 9mm? Yes and no. There are now so many different models available from $300 to over $1500 but I think the market is filled as far as what people in general want. Even when IJ was making the GI 9 they were thinking of dropping it and just marketing a 9mm machinegun version to law enforcement. The GI 9 was not a big seller.
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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
363 Posts

Posted - 01/01/2017 :  5:09:38 PM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah....I'm all better now. I have a good AR in 9-mil anyway. After I dug into it, IJ did add a part or two and used a few specialized parts (as one would assume would be necessary) to convert it to a 9. It'd likely be a wall-hanger anyway and I put my money into things that work, not just to be looked at or locked-up in the safe.
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rg1911
Senior Member



USA
546 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2017 :  5:21:00 PM  Show Profile Send rg1911 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There might be a nostalgia market for an M1 carbine in 9mm (or another cartridge). I just read an article (in the Blue Press catalog from Dillon?) about an M1 Garand lookalike but in .22LR with a manufacturer's price of $699. Certainly out of my price range right now.

Cheers,
Richard
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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
363 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2017 :  08:00:59 AM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It took a while to satisfy my curiosity about the 9's that Iver Johnson produced. I have found them available out there, at least one available now with no magazine. Numrich lists the magazine at around $63....NO THANK YOU. When I learned they had drifted the design to a blow-back by plugging the gas-block, added some weight to the slide and had other 9mm "specific" parts in the gun that are no longer available, my excitement subsided. It would be one to add to a collection if desired, but I have reached the conclusion they were simply a commercial carbine novelty. Like others have indicated (and I agree) there are plenty of good 9-mil blow-back carbines out there and the only one resembling an M1 Carbine I can find is the Legacy Citadel. If I want a 9 in an M1....I'll just have to hold my nose and purchase one of those.

Edited by - americanboy on 01/06/2017 2:35:20 PM
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jlwilliams
Junior Member



USA
78 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2017 :  08:12:03 AM  Show Profile Send jlwilliams a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think there is room in the market for a 9mm carbine that doesn't look like an AR or an "assault rifle." As far as I know the Chiappa is the only one without a pistol grip on the current market. When I see the prices people get for old used Marlin Camp carbine or the Ruger PCC it leads me to believe the market is there. I don't think that a 9mm copy of the M1 makes as much sense as a new design but that's just my two cents.
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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
363 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2017 :  2:34:29 PM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As long as 9 x 19 is so plentiful and cheap, it's going to be a popular caliber. You can purchase it for $10/box commercial and if you cast your own slugs...at 5-6 cents a round. That is still cheaper than shooing 22LR.
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RASelkirk
Junior Member



52 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2017 :  6:01:02 PM  Show Profile Send RASelkirk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes! Make a nice, reliable, 16" carbine in 9 mil with real (not cheap) WOOD furniture and I'll buy it!

Russ
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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
363 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2017 :  5:46:06 PM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wish someone would come forth with some sort of range report on the IJ 9-mil. Parts are plentiful, I'd just like to know if the weapon worked. I can't get my feeble mind wrapped-around how they made this a blow-back, buy simply blocking the gas-port. It seems to me that the design is of a locked-breech and rear movement of the slide has to occur to unlock the bolt and if you remove the ability of the piston to move the slide...the bolt has to unlock and move the slide. The 9mm bolt appears to be of the same design "lock-up" wise as the caliber 30. I do suppose chamber/barrel pressures have to be considered and realized (both peak and minimum) to make it function. Maybe that's why I'm not a gunsmith or a ballistics engineer....LOL.
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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
363 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2017 :  06:27:20 AM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"A fool and his money are soon parted". "If you go looking for trouble....sooner-or-later you'll find it." Maybe both these quotes are at play here, but the cabin-fever is about to get to me and something had to give.

I found one of these IJ 9-mils and bought it for a price much less than I was willing to pay. I also discovered that Numrich Arms has an abundance of parts for the thing, as they purchased all the stock when IJ folded.

I realize many (if not most) may share little-if-any enthusiasm for the gun, but it may make interesting reading as the story unfolds.

Edited by - americanboy on 01/16/2017 06:28:31 AM
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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
363 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2017 :  2:55:46 PM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by americanboy

I can't get my feeble mind wrapped-around how they made this a blow-back, buy simply blocking the gas-port. It seems to me that the design is of a locked-breech and rear movement of the slide has to occur to unlock the bolt and if you remove the ability of the piston to move the slide...the bolt has to unlock and move the slide. The 9mm bolt appears to be of the same design "lock-up" wise as the caliber 30.



This is a gas-operated weapon just like it's big brother...NOT a blow-back. Prior to purchasing this gun, I was informed that it was a blow-back. The bolt unlocks exactly like the cal. 30, by reward movement of the slide after being impacted by the piston. The fitment of the piston differs from the cal. 30, but the gun functions exactly the same. Very handy little 16" barrel carbine in a round that's cheap to shoot!
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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
363 Posts

Posted - 03/02/2017 :  3:59:43 PM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm likely talking to myself here, but you never know when somebody may be interested. This is a commercial carbine, so I suppose it fits in the family somewhere. As I have fired and fooled-with this little gun, I'm intrigued by some of the things Iver Johnson did and why. The bolts I have found quite interesting. The early versions were manufactured as 9MM specific. The gun came with a pinned-ejector and the ejector-plunger hole was not even machined into the bolt-face. But...my bolts (I have a spare) have the ejector-plunger hole. Of course, I stripped out the pinned ejector and installed a standard caliber-30 ejector plunger and spring. It works like a champ. IJ obviously determined that it was more economical to simply tweak a caliber-30 bolt and convert it to 9MM as opposed to manufacturing a specific 9MM bolt. That works great for me and as soon as I find someone who can open the bolt-face of a caliber-30 bolt to accommodate the 9MM...I'll have a USGI bolt in this gun.
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Tuna
Moderator



3283 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2017 :  10:10:09 AM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you already have an original spare then why ruin a USGI bolt? Are you ever going to need three bolt?
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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
363 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2017 :  11:24:20 AM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great question Tuna....and I've asked myself the same thing. I don't know at what point these bolts fail, but I do know they exhibit serious peening after just a few hundred rounds. I hate the thought of trying to figure out just when to change it B4 something bad happens. I have shot it and do plan to continue to shoot it a LOT. My thoughts are to get a GI bolt and hammer in the gun and not have to worry about it anymore.
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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
363 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2017 :  3:04:55 PM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This has been a project that I simply could not put-down. Being a fan of both the USGI 30-caliber carbine and the 9 x 19 round, I just had to pursue this. Anybody with the money can own a caliber-30. Counting the commercial variations, I think a good estimate of total production has to be close to 8 million and climbing. I know of one other person that has one of these Iver Johnson 9mm's. One was purchased off Gunbroker a few weeks ago for a price well north of what I paid. Where the other 2,098-or-so are is anybody's guess I suppose.

The 9mm's were constructed on forged steel single spring Universal receivers using Universal 12-groove barrels bored and chambered in 9mm. Except for a couple of 9mm specific components, the gun is completely compatible with USGI parts. Numrich Arms is/was flush with spare parts, so I acquired what I thought was necessary early on. The component that troubled me the most was the bolt. Commercial carbines are known for soft bolts and in particular the Iver Johnson's. I determined that the only real difference between the 9mm specific bolt and the USGI bolt was the diameter of the face. I attempted to have a GI bolt machined, but was told it was too hard. One machinist tried and returned the bolt unscathed after breaking three bits. Time passes and I eventually discover a machinist that happens to also be a carbine gunsmith. He was in the midst of converting a caliber-30 to a 7.62 x 25 Tokarev. As luck would have it, the Tok and the Luger share the same case dimensions at the rim. He turned a NPM flat bolt for me and it cracked after some 20-rounds. We next turned an IBM round bolt which he measured at 47 on the Rockwell scale. So far, it works flawlessly. I think the reputation for NPM bolts cracking was well publicized, but I had not discovered that until I cracked one myself.

The ejection system installed in the original design consisted of a pinned ejector riveted inside the receiver. This required that a slot be machined along the body of the bolt for this ejector to run-in. This was much like the ejection system design employed on the 1911 and other semi-auto pistols. The modified USGI bolt retains the USGI ejection system with the spring-n-plunger installed in the bolt face. I removed the pinned ejector from the receiver and loaded the modified GI bolt with stock ejection components and it's never failed to eject since. The problematic pinned-ejector Iver Johnson used in the original design was completely unnecessary.

Frankly, an Iver Johnson is not a carbine that I would normally give a second look. They just happen to be the only manufacturer that ever produced a 9mm that I am aware of and only manufactured some 2,100 at that on forged steel receivers. I have a strong little 9mm M1 carbine that I shoot cheaply on a regular basis. The cost in $ to make it that way was not exorbitant and the research, time and energy to make it so was very enjoyable and satisfying.

Edited by - americanboy on 10/25/2017 3:08:45 PM
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jlwilliams
Junior Member



USA
78 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2017 :  8:02:30 PM  Show Profile Send jlwilliams a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cool! I wish they had made more of them.
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americanboy
Advanced Member



USA
363 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2017 :  12:39:04 PM  Show Profile Send americanboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Unfortunately, they ceased production in 1986 when IJ went belly-up. Numrich Arms purchased the stock of parts leftover after the bankruptcy and acquired the 9mm parts in the process. I have found a couple of parts here-n-there and Numrich has sold-out of some of these parts, the extractor being one. I located some on e-bay...of all places, and swapped my machinist buddy a couple of extractors for his Tok conversion to machine my bolt. The extractor is one of the parts that cannot be reproduced. It is 9mm specific and a caliber-30 can't be modified to work.

Of course, this is not of much interest to most M1 carbine enthusiast, but you never know when that guy that has one of these may be searching for information or help. I have already turned-down more than what I have invested in the gun, but I got it to shoot and not look at or sell. Had it been some other wildcat caliber, I would not have been interested, but 9mm ammo is about $9/box, available everywhere and I can reload for 1/2 that. However, I am interested in the outcome of my buddies 7.62x25 conversion project. I understand that is a somewhat common conversion across the big pond.
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