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 M1 underwood Carbine Hammer
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Dodge79
Greenhorn Member


USA
25 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2016 :  12:10:52 PM  Show Profile Send Dodge79 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I recently purchased a hammer from e bay advertised as a Underwood. It is marked UC but I can not find where Underwood used a UC on any of their hammers. The hammer looks like a number 1 but it is hard to see it real well and I had not received it yet. Has anybody got any idea what I have? It is not listed, at least where I can find it in my Graig Riesch book.

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Dodge79
Greenhorn Member



USA
25 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2016 :  3:49:16 PM  Show Profile Send Dodge79 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I found the answer. The hammer is a no 1 make by Utca Cutlary for Underwood
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BQ97
Advanced Member

470 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2016 :  2:17:33 PM  Show Profile Send BQ97 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
UC marked hammers were made by Utica Cutlery as replacements. They were not made for Underwood.
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Dodge79
Greenhorn Member



USA
25 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2016 :  3:24:37 PM  Show Profile Send Dodge79 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess there are dealers out there that will tell you anything to sell a part . I was told this part was actually made for underwood. I have read there was a number of around 1,500 subcontractors that supplied parts to the 10 major suppliers.
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BQ97
Advanced Member

470 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2016 :  4:01:27 PM  Show Profile Send BQ97 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In reality there were less than 300 subcontractors supplying the prime carbine manufacturers.
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Dodge79
Greenhorn Member



USA
25 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2016 :  08:39:51 AM  Show Profile Send Dodge79 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
BQ97 I contacted the seller of the hammer and he tells me a book by Larry somebody actually shows Utica actually did make some hammers for Underwood and he has actually had them in a new old stock unopened Underwood package.
Please keep in mind I am not a Carbine collector and have very little knowledge of the same. Just wanted to let you know what I was told. Makes little difference as I have found out my Carbine has a bad receiver. Guess that will be hard to come up with.
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cali201
Senior Member



USA
702 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2016 :  12:01:07 PM  Show Profile Send cali201 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dodge, if BQ advised so then you can take that to the bank!! War Baby (Larry Ruth) and Reisch both do NOT list UC as an Underwood hammer.

Edited by - cali201 on 10/26/2016 6:18:37 PM
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BQ97
Advanced Member

470 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2016 :  6:07:50 PM  Show Profile Send BQ97 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The seller is either misinformed or they lied to you.

The only prime carbine manufacturer Utica Cutlery supplied hammers to was Quality Hardware. Those are marked Q.U., Q for Quality Hardware and U for Utica Cutlery.

Utica Cutlery overproduced hammers for Q.H.M.C. and had a surplus of hammers on stock when The Q.H.M.C. contract was cancelled. Utica successfully negotiated with the government to provide the overproduced hammers to the Ordnance Dept., they were to line through the Q.U. marking and stamp UC, the Ordnance assigned code for Utica Cutlery, below the previous marking. This procedure was annotated in an Ordnance Department memorandum dated September 1944.

Ordnance records show that on September 2nd, 1944 Utica was awarded a contract to supply replacement hammers. This is likely when the afore mentioned hammers were restamped and the UC, with no other markings, hammers were produced. There is a document posted on the CMP Carbine forum that shows the Ordnance assigned codes. It lists UC as Utica Cutlery.

Hammers marked U were made by Underwood.

Edited by - BQ97 on 10/26/2016 6:11:10 PM
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Dodge79
Greenhorn Member



USA
25 Posts

Posted - 10/27/2016 :  07:22:47 AM  Show Profile Send Dodge79 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
BQ97 thank you for the information. Sounds like the seller, a very large seller on e-bay just flat lied to get more money for his Hammer because it was really a "Utica Cutlery/Underwood". I went so for as to tell the seller before buying the hammer that I had a Carbine that had a Underwood barrel and receiver and a few more internal parts that had the `U` including the magazine. My intent was to have as many parts from Underwood as I could when I replaced parts that were worn. The seller guaranteed me that was what I was getting. He told me he had actually taken UC hammers out of Underwood stock packages.
I have now found the receiver is no good and given the cost of a receiver I will more than likely part it out.
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Tuna
Moderator



3155 Posts

Posted - 10/27/2016 :  9:11:31 PM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Did this seller happen to be on the left coast and have a first name of George?
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cali201
Senior Member



USA
702 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2016 :  06:57:33 AM  Show Profile Send cali201 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Or Riverbank?
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Dodge79
Greenhorn Member



USA
25 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2016 :  07:38:33 AM  Show Profile Send Dodge79 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
His name is Mike from AZ
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Dodge79
Greenhorn Member



USA
25 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2016 :  07:50:03 AM  Show Profile Send Dodge79 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I received a note that this seller on e bay was very upset that I was wanting to return the hammer, said he could loose thousands of dollars because of my action. In fact I still have the hammer as it is in really good shape, I never requested a refund. I more than likely gave to much for the hammer but it was my fault for not checking it out.
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Tuna
Moderator



3155 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2016 :  11:44:30 AM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That makes no sense at all. If you just return the hammer and he just refunds you your money, how is that going to cost him thousands? Who other then you and him are going to know? It is his fault for not knowing what he was selling, not yours as you did not know about the hammer.
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Dodge79
Greenhorn Member



USA
25 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2016 :  1:43:01 PM  Show Profile Send Dodge79 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had already given the guy a positive review as the part looked nearly new and he shipped fast. So I could not hurt him with a review as they can not be changed once made. I did not know about this forum at the time but I advised the seller as to what I had learned from a forum, did not use any of your site information. The guy claims it is your members who are wrong about the hammer.
I am a Winchester collector and have learned a great deal about Winchester on Gun Broker Forum, a really good bunch of guys with a lot of information. I am sure your group is the same kind of people.
I can live with what I have but will put this guys name in my do not buy book.
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cali201
Senior Member



USA
702 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2016 :  2:38:38 PM  Show Profile Send cali201 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
how much did you pay for this hammer??
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BQ97
Advanced Member

470 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2016 :  8:42:26 PM  Show Profile Send BQ97 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't sell carbine parts, even though I have thousands of them, so I have nothing to gain or loose by providing the correct information. On the other hand a prime manufacturer marked carbine part is generally worth more than a replacement part so it benefits a seller to misidentify a replacement part as one for a prime carbine contractor so it can be sold for a higher price.

Looking at a few of the same seller's hammer auctions a White Sewing replacement hammer is misidentified as a Winchester hammer. A WRA hammer is always more valuable than a White Sewing hammer. A circled B/R hammer, a replacement made by Brunner Ritter , is misidentified as a Rock-Ola hammer. As you can imagine Rock-Ola hammers are more sought after then replacement hammers so command a higher price. An AM marked hammer, a replacement made by Art Metal Works, is claimed to be a late Inland hammer. See a trend developing? Of course it all could be due to ignorance on M1 Carbine part manufacturers or it could be intentional to take advantage of potential buyers not armed with the correct information.

Just as a side note, Union Forgings, Union Fork & Hoe, Union Switch & Signal, Union Hardware, United Elastic, United Shoe Machinery, Universal Machine, Universal Winding, & Utica Cutlery all made carbine parts for a least one prime carbine manufacturer and all used a U in the assigned marking code. So a U on a carbine part doesn't always mean Underwood just like a W doesn't always mean Winchester.

BTW, in case you run across them an H.T. rotary safety is a replacement part and SA marked triggers were not made by Springfield Armory, they were made by Able Tool Company for Standard Products.

Edited by - BQ97 on 10/28/2016 8:45:27 PM
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Dodge79
Greenhorn Member



USA
25 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2016 :  08:02:21 AM  Show Profile Send Dodge79 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I paid $ 75 plus 6.80 shipping for the hammer. And yes I can see this guy might me intentionally misleading people like myself to sell his product for a higher price. My hammer is really beat up so I kept the one I purchased. It was installed so at least that part of the carbine looks really solid.
I did have a member of this site contact me advising he had a couple receivers but is interested in my receiver for his non working collection. I have never heard of such a thing. I do not keep non working parts. I normally just cut up a bad part and junk it.
Thank all of you for the information on Carbines. This more than likely will be the only carbine I will own but I would like to get it working.
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Dodge79
Greenhorn Member



USA
25 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2016 :  3:14:48 PM  Show Profile Send Dodge79 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Would somebody tell me what I could expect to pay for a good carbine receiver?
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cali201
Senior Member



USA
702 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2016 :  4:45:57 PM  Show Profile Send cali201 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you are looking for a WWII GI receiver then $300+ and be careful as there are a lot of receivers that were demilled (cut) and then welded back together. If you do not worry about GI but want a good, solid base this is the way to go: You must be logged in to see this link.


$75 for a type 3 hammer??????????? That could be a record!! Normally, especially an Underwood, $30 would be tops. If it was ebay and if you still have time I would open up a thing with them and get your money back. Ebay pretty much always sides with the buyer.


Some people do use demilled parts for wall hangers and such. Again, be careful you are not getting a re-worked receiver in a buy/swap.

Edited by - cali201 on 10/29/2016 4:53:38 PM
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Dodge79
Greenhorn Member



USA
25 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2016 :  6:48:17 PM  Show Profile Send Dodge79 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
this hammer looked like mine, a dog leg, . It is a little late to return the thing, I just got screwed. My guess is most people who buy from this guy will give a positive to quick only to find they can not change the review once it is made. I guess part of the learning process. The only receiver I have found, a underwood, serial number and time period correct, is $ 400. I think I will just wait for a while.
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cali201
Senior Member



USA
702 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2016 :  06:25:16 AM  Show Profile Send cali201 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A UC marked dog leg? Here is a picture of both, dog leg (on far right) and straight. I would have thought a UC would have been a type 3, straight hammer.




Edited by - cali201 on 10/30/2016 06:26:20 AM
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Dodge79
Greenhorn Member



USA
25 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2016 :  06:11:55 AM  Show Profile Send Dodge79 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
cali 201 Well the guy that sold me the hammer was wrong again. The one I have is the one on the right. Guess I specifically ask if the hammer was correct for my carbine and provided the serial number. He referred to the hammer as the original design and was the one I needed and referred to it as the dog leg design. The ad. for the hammer actually said it was a underwood but as you can see from another member of the forum the guy has a little trouble identifying his stock. He did tell me later the hammer was made by Utica for Underwood which was also a lie.
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cali201
Senior Member



USA
702 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2016 :  07:10:32 AM  Show Profile Send cali201 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
well the one on the FAR right is a dog leg more sought after but if UC hammers were replacements then I would imagine they would NOT be dog leg but type 3 straight hammers.


Just to make sure we are on the same page (pun)

Edited by - cali201 on 11/01/2016 07:11:01 AM
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BQ97
Advanced Member

470 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2016 :  4:01:23 PM  Show Profile Send BQ97 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is the hammer in question.



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Dodge79
Greenhorn Member



USA
25 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2016 :  07:24:49 AM  Show Profile Send Dodge79 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You are correct that is the hammer in question. I did find a Underwood receiver and my gun parts are at the gunsmith being put together so I was going by memory. Any way the guy said it was the old original hammer. Not sure why my question to him did not show up in questions. Given the number of people who have responded, from this site and others I can not believe how many sellers are real crooks and known by name.
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