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bigfish85
Starting Member


15 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2015 :  2:12:48 PM  Show Profile Send bigfish85 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Looking to buy a carbine because my grandad carried one in Europe.

Have an opportunity to buy a NPM, but I know it's not 100% "correct". Just talked to the owner and we're pretty certain it's wearing a repro stock and sling.

It has the older flip sight, push button (Saginaw) safety, flat bolt, etc. Barrel is a Marlin, handguard is a Trimble. Underlined M on the mag release. Trigger group appears to be NPM. No bayonet lug and no import marks that I know of. I don't know s# range, but was told it was a 42-43 year. Unsure on anything else.

Going to look at it tomorrow. Anything I should look for and or look out for?

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shadycon
Veteran Member



USA
1376 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2015 :  2:20:46 PM  Show Profile Send shadycon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi and welcome; Look at it 'real close' to see if it has been messed with. Look for new looking parts or parts that do not seem the same age as the rest of the gun. Some original small parts could be blued instead of parkerised. Most are 'mixmasters' as parts were replaced with what was available during arsenal rebuilds. From what you have said so far it could be a good find. I hope this helps.

M1's-R-FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!
TSMG's-R-MORE-FUN!!!!!
ENJOY LIFE & HAVE FUN!!
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1060 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2015 :  4:23:40 PM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi and welcome from New Mexico!

Whenever I have an opportunity to look at a new carbine I like to take a muzzle erosion gauge with me just to get an idea of what shape the bore might be. If it's 2 or less then it's probably okay. Also, I look at the condition of the locking lugs on the bolt and the corresponding surfaces of the receiver. I recently passed on a carbine that had out-of-battery discharge damage after noticing rounded areas of the receiver locking lug recesses. Check to see if the operating slide is excessively loose. Does the slide too easily disengage from the receiver if you pull it back and to the right? If it does and the wear is in the receiver you might not be able to easily fix it. If it's the slide that is worn maybe it will be okay with a different slide. If possible, ask the owner if he has any fired brass that you can look at for problems like a bulged case (worn chamber), bent rims (extraction problem) or protruding primer (possible headspace problem).

Good luck!

JackP
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bigfish85
Starting Member



15 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2015 :  4:52:20 PM  Show Profile Send bigfish85 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you both. Wish I knew more about these things. Also wish I was looking 15 years ago!
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bigfish85
Starting Member



15 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2015 :  7:13:58 PM  Show Profile Send bigfish85 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Few pics. This is all I've seen. I know, I know... I'm not an Armslist fan, but....







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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1060 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2015 :  7:46:17 PM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's kinda hard to tell. The only thing obvious from the pictures is that the bolt has been refinished. It looks parkerized. The original finish would be a black oxide Du-Lite finish. Other than that I don't see anything else that would scare me away.

JackP
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bigfish85
Starting Member



15 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2015 :  8:07:50 PM  Show Profile Send bigfish85 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good deal. I posted the pics in hopes that those in the know might pick up on red flags. Never ever would have known that about the bolt. Much appreciated. Somewhat reassuring that there aren't other obvious issues.

Also, I'm looking for something roughly correct as I can't afford the CMP auction guns. I'd love a carbine in the make-up that it left the factory in, but am somewhat comfortable if that's not 100% the case. Would like something close though.
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1060 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2015 :  8:41:53 PM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, so far it looks close. Hope you do get a good deal. If you get it, post some more pictures. What we'd like to see are closeups of the rear sight, barrel band and safety. These are the parts that are most likely to be in question. Also, look for the proper staking for a flip rear sight. Let us know the serial number range when you can.

JackP
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bigfish85
Starting Member



15 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2015 :  08:17:14 AM  Show Profile Send bigfish85 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ask and ye shall receive. Anything here?







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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1060 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2015 :  09:50:14 AM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not seeing markings on the sight that should be there. Specifically there should be an "S" marked on the left side. Maybe it's just the picture. Also, the barrel band looks a little wonky. The originals I've seen are usually pretty straight and fit more squarely. Go on the CMP Auctions website and look at the completed auctions for examples and you will see what I mean. Post a closeup of each from above if you can. It will tell us more. Maybe someone else will chime in so you can get more opinions.

JackP
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bigfish85
Starting Member



15 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2015 :  10:03:21 AM  Show Profile Send bigfish85 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you. Not yet in my possession. On my way to look at it now. Any other advice and insights appreciated.
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bigfish85
Starting Member



15 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2015 :  10:28:13 AM  Show Profile Send bigfish85 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Assume stock, rear sight and hand guard are repro. What's it worth?
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1060 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2015 :  11:24:36 AM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, if everything else is okay (ie. good bore, no damage, etc.) as is, anywhere from $700-900. If you wish to replace the rear sight, hand guard and stock (and possibly the barrel band) with "correct" parts you will need to spend a whole lot more. The problem is that after making it "correct" it won't be worth as much as the sum of the parts. But that's okay if it's what you want. It's like restoring a classic car or motorcycle. It's never worth as much as you put into it. Good luck. Tell us how it turns out.

JackP
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bigfish85
Starting Member



15 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2015 :  11:39:30 AM  Show Profile Send bigfish85 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok. Did the deal. $840 with two mags. Bore looks great.

I like the classic car analogy. Makes perfect sense.

Thank you!
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1060 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2015 :  11:47:04 AM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great! Now let's see a lot more pictures. If you have a Photobucket, IMGUR or similar image hosting web site account, post them there and tell us the link. It's a lot easier. Also, posting too many images at one time here (more than 3 at a time) sometimes will get you locked out of your account. Don't know why, but that's what some say.

Again, congratulations!

JackP
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Tuna
Moderator



3267 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2015 :  12:13:04 PM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The rear sight is a repo as is the sling and I think the barrel band is also. The safety may also be a reproduction and the magazine catch is a type 3 that NPM never used. If you can get a hold of the sell and tell them there are reproduction parts on it and that the fair market value is in the $700 range. Try to get some of your funds back or return it as not being what was advertised.
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bigfish85
Starting Member



15 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2015 :  1:05:05 PM  Show Profile Send bigfish85 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I knew it had some repro parts on it (see above). I guess my level of concern is dependent on how much I over paid

Edited by - bigfish85 on 12/27/2015 1:16:08 PM
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1060 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2015 :  1:24:24 PM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Did you have to pay FFL transfer fees, tax or shipping? If not, feel good about that. You did okay.

JackP
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1060 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2015 :  1:25:27 PM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And you got an extra mag! That's worth $20.

JackP
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bigfish85
Starting Member



15 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2015 :  1:43:59 PM  Show Profile Send bigfish85 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Don't know either of you, but I sure like Jacks outlook

ETA I figure I paid $800 for the rifle and $40 for the two mags. That seems a little better.

No tax, fees, shipping, etc. That's the OTD price.

So what, I maybe overpaid by $100? I've got so much money that's merely a rounding error. Lolololololol!

Edited by - bigfish85 on 12/27/2015 2:05:21 PM
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bigfish85
Starting Member



15 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2015 :  8:18:18 PM  Show Profile Send bigfish85 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
End of last post was a joke. Hope it came across that was. I'm looking at this as a long term project.

S# 1963xxx. Would love some help on what parts should be what.

Thanks all
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1060 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2015 :  9:00:20 PM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
October-November 1943. A good source of information on what parts are correct is Craig Riesch's book "U.S. M1 Carbines, Wartime Production", $23 paperback on Amazon Prime. It ain't perfect but it's a good start. Only 222 pages of easy to read print and pictures. After you memorize it then get Larry Ruth's book "War Baby!" volume I. Only 495 glossy pages of itty bitty, hard to read print and pictures. Probably ~ $50-60. It has a lot on the history of the wartime carbine trials and subsequent production. There is a volume II and II, great coffee table books but they cost a whole lot more.

JackP
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bigfish85
Starting Member



15 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2015 :  10:00:08 PM  Show Profile Send bigfish85 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, if that's all the reading I have to do, then I should have that wrapped up by mid-week.

Tore it apart as far as I could with my limited knowledge of the rifle. Here's what I've found so far. The Unknown items are farther down than I was able to disassemble. And someone on YouTube better be able to help reassemble the trigger group. haha.





With that, I'm going to bed.

And I'll try heeding your advice on linking to pics instead of posted...next time.
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shadycon
Veteran Member



USA
1376 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2015 :  07:48:20 AM  Show Profile Send shadycon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with Jack that you did OK. It looks to be a nice carbine.

M1's-R-FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!
TSMG's-R-MORE-FUN!!!!!
ENJOY LIFE & HAVE FUN!!
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1060 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2015 :  09:28:03 AM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That trigger looks legit, at least I hope so, mine looks just like it. Oh, and that glossy paged book I was telling you about says QHMC transferred 640 of their triggers to NPM in 1943 so maybe it's been there all along. Also, 13,000 Underwood hammers were transferred to NPM in Nov 1943 so, same story. I know, it's wishful thinking but I wouldn't replace them just to make your carbine "correct". The Winchester parts don't belong. I'd still like to see pictures of the stocks sling well and barrel channel. It doesn't look like a repro to me. Your carbine has been messed with, but I believe it's more original than you think. If it were mine, I'd update it to "Arsenal Rebuild Correct" (adjustable rear sight, flip safety, barrel band w/bayonet lug, etc.) and leave everything else as is. It'll be a better shooter that way, too.

JackP
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bigfish85
Starting Member



15 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2015 :  09:37:10 AM  Show Profile Send bigfish85 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Jack. As long as the parts are GI I'm good...for now.

Just realized I got my table a little messed up. Obviously the yellow comment about the hammer is really about the trigger.

Any thoughts on the slide with two markings?

I'll send some more pics of the stock.

Thanks again.
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