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 Saginaw SG
 Saginaw SG Ser # with Inland barrel question
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oldazzmarine
Greenhorn Member


28 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2015 :  10:50:39 PM  Show Profile Send oldazzmarine a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have a Saginaw SG receiver ser# 3393xxx with A 7/42 dated Inland General Motors barrel. There are several markings on the bottom of the receiver that I am not to sure about. It has a SG marking along with the letter J on the fwd tab for the trigger assy. The trigger housing appears to be an Irwin-Pedersen with a Winchester trigger. I'm curious to know if the IP parts add more value to the rifle. What I have found so far in my research, it looks like Inland bought out IP at one point in time and used the parts they had left over to make their carbines. Inland and Saginaw also used each others parts. So what exactly do I have here? An Inland or Saginaw or a Frankenstein M1.

Any constructive feedback is greatly appreciated.

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Edited by - oldazzmarine on 02/10/2015 10:58:20 PM

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oldazzmarine
Greenhorn Member



28 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2015 :  10:52:43 PM  Show Profile Send oldazzmarine a Private Message  Reply with Quote
More photos

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oldazzmarine
Greenhorn Member



28 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2015 :  10:54:10 PM  Show Profile Send oldazzmarine a Private Message  Reply with Quote
More photos

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oldazzmarine
Greenhorn Member



28 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2015 :  10:57:47 PM  Show Profile Send oldazzmarine a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Two more photos

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By the way there are no marks at all on the stock. No arsenal markings, Mfg stamps or anything. Is there a way to tell who the maker may have been?

Thank you for your time.
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1061 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2015 :  11:59:16 PM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Saginaw story is a confusing one.

Your receiver was made by Saginaw, maybe originally intended for Inland but actually assembled by Saginaw Steering Gear Division in Saginaw. This is an early receiver with a narrow tang. Later Saginaw receivers have a wide tang. This would have occurred shortly after the award of the Saginaw contract.

The Inland barrel is correct for this carbine. So are Saginaw, Underwood and Buffalo Arms barrels.

As I understand it, the IP trigger housing would have been used on carbines made in Grand Rapids, either by Irwin Pedersen or Saginaw in Grand Rapids. Your carbine should have an "SG" marked trigger housing.

Actually Saginaw took over Irwin Pedersen's contracts, not Inland, but it was still G.M.

Finally, I believe it would be correct to say this is a Saginaw Steering Gear Division carbine.

JackP
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oldazzmarine
Greenhorn Member



28 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2015 :  08:45:49 AM  Show Profile Send oldazzmarine a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jack,

Thank you for the reply, I really appreciate all the information you have given me on both of my M1's. I would like to pick your brain a little more if you do mind and ask a few more questions. The only way I can learn what I have is to ask questions.. Right? :)

So, does having IP parts on a rifle add any more value to the rifle? From what I have read Irwin-Pedersen parts seem to be scarce.

In one of my photos below it shows a SG on the side of the receiver wall and another photo shows the letter J on the bottom of the fwd trigger housing lug. Does the J also stand for IP or does it have another meaning? And what about those crazy looking stamps near the gas block. What do those mean?

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I mentioned in my previous post the stock has no markings at all. It has a nice patina to it but it appears to have some sort of sticky residue on it that needs to be removed. What would you recommend other than completely stripping and re-staining the stock. I thought about using orange oil or goof off to remove the residue but I don't want to damage the wood. Also, how can I find out if this particular stock matches with the rest of the rifle or is it a generic stock.

Again, thank you for your time and I look forward to your response.

Edited by - oldazzmarine on 02/11/2015 08:54:30 AM
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1061 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2015 :  10:38:36 AM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IP Markings:

Yeah, IP and S'G'(Grand Rapids) parts are typically more collectible than SG (Saginaw) parts, particularly to someone trying to build a “correct” IP carbine. I would suspect it would have more value as a “rare” part by itself than it would add to the overall value of your carbine. After all, your carbine is a rebuild, not original. By itself it may be worth several hundred dollars. Can you post pictures of the trigger housing?

Letter “J” marking:

This is just a random stamp, probably by an inspector. I've seen this before. My Inland has an “E” stamped in the same place.

Crazy looking stamps:

These are typical of Inland barrels. Again, these are manufacturing and/or inspection marks and are referred to by collectors as “Inland Hieroglyphics”. Yours are surprisingly legible. Most that I have seen are unreadable.

Stock finish:

I use Murphy’s oil soap applied with a soft terry cloth rag. It will remove soil buildup without damaging the patina or underlying markings. I do not use steel wool or abrasive pads. The color will probably lighten a bit when you do this. Afterward, wipe it dry and apply raw linseed oil by hand until the original color returns. Rub it in well. Repeat the oil application several more times. If Murphy’s oil soap fails to remove the sticky substance then it’s probably some kind of varnish remnant and a stronger solvent might be necessary.

If there are no markings on the stock, then it’s not USGI. As far as I know there are no “generic” USGI stocks. It looks like it might be a later “potbelly” stock. There may be a “SA” stamp on the top, under the hand guard that you missed. If so then this is a USGI post war replacement stock. Can you post a photo of the forward barrel channel? Also, does it have an M2 selector cutout?

JackP
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rhineriver1
Advanced Member



Switzerland
271 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2015 :  06:20:50 AM  Show Profile Send rhineriver1 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
JackP. Was Saginaw SG also using Inland barrels for their carbines?
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Tuna
Moderator



3283 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2015 :  11:07:12 AM  Show Profile Send Tuna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No, Saginaw S.G. made their own barrels. S'G' Grand Rapids did use some Inland barrels during the fall of 1943. From September to December they use about 37,000+ barrels from Inland.

Post war pot Belly stocks quite often are not marked and are USGI. Right up into Viet Nam there were stocks being made. Plus stocks being made in South Korea too.
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1061 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2015 :  3:22:37 PM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tuna is correct regarding later post war replacement stocks. I was thinking only of wartime manufacture. There were a few recognized post war stock manufacturers such as Springfield Armory (SA), Robert W. Irwin (IR), Lumb Woodworking (LW) and and a few others that I know of. However, as far as I know they all marked their stocks according to Ordinance Department requirements. As Tuna noted, carbine stocks were also made South Korea, Germany, Italy and other countries supplied by the U.S. Military Assistance Program. I do not know how or if these stocks were marked.

Saginaw S.G. did make their own barrels but, according to Larry Ruth's War Baby!, government-free-issue barrels originally supplied to Grand Rapids were also used at Saginaw as part of the production cleanup effort at both of the Saginaw plants. So, Inland, Buffalo and Underwood barrels might be found as well.

JackP
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oldazzmarine
Greenhorn Member



28 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2015 :  4:47:37 PM  Show Profile Send oldazzmarine a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gentlemen,

Here are some photos of the stock that I'm not sure about and also of trigger housing group. Please take a look and let me know your opinion on who the stocks mfg.might be.

Thanks

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oldazzmarine
Greenhorn Member



28 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2015 :  4:49:22 PM  Show Profile Send oldazzmarine a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Stock photos

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oldazzmarine
Greenhorn Member



28 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2015 :  4:50:56 PM  Show Profile Send oldazzmarine a Private Message  Reply with Quote
more stock photos
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oldazzmarine
Greenhorn Member



28 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2015 :  4:52:24 PM  Show Profile Send oldazzmarine a Private Message  Reply with Quote

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oldazzmarine
Greenhorn Member



28 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2015 :  5:20:27 PM  Show Profile Send oldazzmarine a Private Message  Reply with Quote
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Jackp
Veteran Member



USA
1061 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2015 :  5:39:31 PM  Show Profile Send Jackp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The stock is an M2 potbelly. I don't recognize the maker. However the butt plate looks like it might be an IBM.

Trigger housing looks like a re-parkerized IP. Note the tooling hole in the side behind the trigger and also the beveled receiver lug which is all correct.

JackP
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